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 Post subject: Nightlion's Official Book of Abraham TA DA
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 12:09 pm 
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I believe the Book of Abraham is a genuine revelation. It is interesting that Joseph Smith was directed more to the phonetics of Egyptian. No one today speaks the Egyptian language, not even slightly. The world still only deciphers a dead language. The Coptic Christian liturgies that kept some of the spoken Egyptian alive has been lost since the 1600s. What a great study if it were possible to take the phonetics of Joseph Smith's Egyptian to compare with the spoken Coptic language. Oh well.

I think Joseph Smith was under great pressure to show competence with Egyptian, as was mentioned in the thread on metallurgy, where Tobin and Chap are going back and forth. The Rosetta Stone was in the English Museum and Jean-François Champollion published his decipherment of it in 1822. Joseph must have at least heard about it. Egyptian was still not understood at all. A comparative deciphering is a lot of guess work.

For Joseph Smith to get into the phonetics of Egyptian is proof that he must have been hearing something extraordinary. You do not need to hear a language to translate its meaning. So Joseph was not translating like with the Book of Mormon. He was hearing Egyptian because the text of the Book of Abraham made a point of it doing just that. So regardless of how unabashedly Joseph jumped into the fray of his Egyptian Alphabet and grammar.........and Phonetics...... the likelihood that his ego race ahead of reality the Lord allowed for a reason. You could say that the Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away. Blessed be the name of the Lord. They really never accepted what the Lord restored anyways.

What God intended was a smack down on the present leadership of the LDS Church. Keeping the papyrus lost until the Sixties of the 20th Century after Egyptian Scholarship had evolved sufficiently presented a true Abrahamic Test for the Church.

The strength of the Mormon Church is the revelations of Joseph Smith. Now we have a true contradiction that threatens the veracity of Joseph Smith and taints everything he ever did.
How then shall LIVING prophets stand and deliver the defense of their founder?

This they failed and refused and would not show themselves prophets, seers or revelators. As with all cowards they simply ignored it and allowed the carnage to follow. Almost a Jubilee of Carnage has passed. Fifty years frozen at the helm in patent denial proving only hypocrite to the core and an abomination of irresponsibility having trampled the gospel from the beginning and not kept the gifts and powers of the Holy Ghost or their priesthood. And rather than repent and seek the Lord earnestly to remove their shame, they move forward in "faith".
And that is what needed to be judged and proven to end the reign of the Gentiles.

They are now the Excellence of the Chaldees, Babylon the Great living to squander their great wealth in making rich their friends to all the better insulate them from accountability as those fawning sycophants hold up LDS leadership as a terror to any who dare to molest them in their authority that the feeders might all the more suckle on the trickled down riches of overbuilding infrastructure while leaving the people with only a putrid fare to replicate hypocrite spirituality taught by a job rich education system under the intentional duress of inviolate accepted protocols that insist all professors only speak in a manner to enhance and prop up the worth of every word ever spoken by the power elite. This is the circular perpetual pulsation of priestcraft perfected.

The emperor has no clothes. Neither the Great Whore, the Mother of Abominations which is fallen in the dust as Nephi prophesied it would. So it was intended to crack the image head to foot and let fall the days of the Gentiles when all things are made ready for the NEW ORDER OF ZION or the more good nooz. Always leave them with a smile.

Thus doth a stone cut out of the mountain without hands smiteth thee oh damned whale.
(White whale=Gentiles)

To add insult to injury consider that not only did Hinckley build a ziggarat with hanging gardens under an erect phallus of unceasing issue, (LDS conference Center) but planned for an actual tower of Babylon to rise in Salt Lake City proper. Notice that all four sides step up to the top as we expect the original tower built to get to heaven so Nimrod could shoot an arrow to kill God. Damn witches anyways. Behold:

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 Post subject: Re: Nightlion's Official Book of Abraham TA DA
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 12:45 pm 
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Nightlion wrote:
I believe the Book of Abraham is a genuine revelation.


The revelations are FALSE. They are pure lies made up by a false prophet. Modern Egyptology has proven that Joseph Smith couldn't read Egyptian and that his proposed revelations which he published in the Times & Seasons are bunk.

Figure 2
King Pharaoh, whose name is given in the characters above his head.

Figure 4
Prince of Pharaoh, King of Egypt, as written above the hand.

Figure 5
Shulem, one of the king's principal waiters, as represented by the characters above his hand

Figure 6
Olimlah, a slave belonging to the prince.

Joseph Smith's revelations are fit for the trash can.

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 Post subject: Re: Nightlion's Official Book of Abraham TA DA
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 12:50 pm 
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Joseph Smith had no idea what was contained in the writing that surrounds the opening scene to his Book of Abraham story. He couldn't read Egyptian. His story is an insult to the ancient Egyptian religion and makes a mockery of one of the world's great religions of old. The Mormons have committed sacriledge against the gods that are dear to the heart of those who have long since slept. The Mormons continue to cover for the lies of their founding prophet. For shame! Never trust a Mormon! The dishonest acts of Mormonism stink to high heaven!!

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 Post subject: Re: Nightlion's Official Book of Abraham TA DA
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 1:07 pm 
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The bloody revelations of Joe Smith failed to include anything about the god's phallus which is a hypocephalic strong point -- a pleasure Joe Smith used on several girls, some quite younger than himself.

Image

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 Post subject: Re: Nightlion's Official Book of Abraham TA DA
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 1:20 pm 
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Mormon apologists are proud to use the following vignette in effort to prove that the name Abram was associated with a funerary scene. So what! The name Abram is a major character in world history and it's not surprising that his name found its way into the expressions of other religions. Jews, Christians, and even Mormons all use the name Abram.

Image


But wait! Joe Smith wants to add his two cents:

Fig 5-8 The idolatrous god[s] of Elkenah... Libnah... Mahmackrah... Korash... Pharaoh.

WHERE ARE THE NAMES OF THESE GODS IN THE PAPYRUS? SHOW ME! I accuse Joseph Smith for making those names up and pretending that they are on the papyrus when in fact they are not. Hell, knowing Joe Smith, he would have pointed at some characters and say, "There are the names".

Joe Blow Smith was a liar!

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 Post subject: Re: Nightlion's Official Book of Abraham TA DA
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 1:26 pm 
Paul,

You researched this for a long time. What is the REAL translation for the Egyptian?


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 Post subject: Re: Nightlion's Official Book of Abraham TA DA
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 1:34 pm 
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liz3564 wrote:
Paul,

You researched this for a long time. What is the REAL translation for the Egyptian?


You can pretty much get what you need to know from this page regarding correct translations.

http://www.mormonthink.com/book-of-abraham-issues.htm

also

http://user.xmission.com/~research/breathing/index.htm

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 Post subject: Re: Nightlion's Official Book of Abraham TA DA
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 1:43 pm 
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liz3564 wrote:
Paul,

You researched this for a long time. What is the REAL translation for the Egyptian?


Trust me, If Joseph Smith got his translations right they would be showcased in the church periodicals. The only reason the church doesn't publish on this matter is because Joseph Smith got it all wrong and it destroys faith to even bring it up. The Mormon prophets don't know what to make of the Explanations of Facsimile No. 3. Elder Holland-ass even admitted that he doesn't understand the vehicle in which Joseph translates. But Holland should know better than to say that. Everyone knows that when you translate one language into another it's because you know two languages! It's like going from French to German but the words mean the same thing. But modern Egyptology has proven that Joseph Smith's words have nothing to do with Egyptian or the papyri in which he handled. Modern science has proven the Mormon prophet a liar.

Isn't it marvelous?

:razz:

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 Post subject: Re: Nightlion's Official Book of Abraham TA DA
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 2:02 pm 
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Not easy to ignore when you pile up four ignore lines on my thread, Paul. None of the text for the Book of Abraham came from any of the facsimiles. I think it most probable that Joseph was playing fast and loose on them. With no revelation to guide him he was letting his imagination go wild. I think that he actually thought he was reading them however.

I can sympathize with him on this. When Mark Hoffmann's forgery of the Anthon Transcript came out I studied that sucker for over six months certain that it deciphered to the Title Page of the Book of Mormon. Just taking the glyphs in the columns and leaving out everything in the boxes and circle I was able to render a precise rationale that in fact perfectly fit my thesis. Having done this with great excitement I was taken to render an original translation of what WAS in the boxes and in the circled groupings. And I did so. I was rather please with myself and expected to go on the lecture tour of Church Seminaries and Institutes teaching the awestruck how to read Reformed Egyptian.

Long story short, my lack of charisma detained me from getting renown before the bombs began to explode and that Anthon Transcript was rendered moot. Although I am still fond of my deciphering of the Title Page consistent with characters older than Hoffmann's forgery, without the few glyphs Mark obviously "made up" to kick it off, as I now suspect he had the exact same idea for a deciphering and planted the groupings intentionally to lead to that, something my novice approached at first failed to detect, so without it my attempt to translate the other glyphs is extremely suspect. I can't even remember where I put that work. Lucky for me my good name and reputation without charisma held me back lest I become a buffoon and a laughing stalk, before my time. :rolleyes:

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 Post subject: Re: Nightlion's Official Book of Abraham TA DA
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 3:08 pm 
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Nightlion wrote:
None of the text for the Book of Abraham came from any of the facsimiles. I think it most probable that Joseph was playing fast and loose on them. With no revelation to guide him he was letting his imagination go wild. I think that he actually thought he was reading them however.


Nightlion claims that none of the text of the Facsimile comes from the Book of Abraham. But I will say that Nightlion doesn't know what he is talking about. The Facsimiles and the text of the chapters of Abraham are interlocked and words therein are forever related in the mind of Joe Smith.

I will agree with Nightlion that Joe Smith played fast and loose with his revelations/translations of the Facsimilies. It was a total joke. The text of the Book of Abraham is also a joke -- foot loose and fanciful, nonEgyptian garbage. Yes, the chapters of the Book of Abraham are Joe Smith's mind gone wild -- imagination, lies, and borrowing from other sources. Smith was a thief and a liar. His presentation of the Facsimiles to the world are a clear demonstration of how Joe Smith pretended to translate anything into anything he wanted it to be. A man who tells one lie will easily tell another. Joe Smith told one lie on top of another. His entire career was built upon lies and deception. He is not to be trusted in anything!

Joseph Smith would have excommunicated Nightlion from his church for denying the revelations of the Facsimilies in public.

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 Post subject: Re: Nightlion's Official Book of Abraham TA DA
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 3:39 pm 
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Shulem wrote:

Joseph Smith would have excommunicated Nightlion from his church for denying the revelations of the Facsimilies in public.

Paul O


Now see here, Shulem, Joseph Smith and I would have been fast friends and I would have known all the particulars of what was going on with the Facsimiles. Hell, the mob with painted faces would have had to take me down before they into the Carthage Jail.

In fact if I had been there with him Zion could not have been withheld from us in our time. If I get any sort of group wanting Zion and getting the gospel right and insist on knowing what's up with the Book of Abraham debacle and they sustain me for prophet, I will ask and get the answer or die trying. Heck, I may yet do it on spec, so stay tuned.

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 Post subject: Re: Nightlion's Official Book of Abraham TA DA
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 3:59 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Nightlion's Official Book of Abraham TA DA
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 5:18 pm 
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lostindc wrote:
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Did you want me to see the nightlion in the clouds above Jesus' outstretched arm?

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 Post subject: Re: Nightlion's Official Book of Abraham TA DA
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 5:50 pm 
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Shulem wrote:
liz3564 wrote:
Paul,

You researched this for a long time. What is the REAL translation for the Egyptian?


Trust me, If Joseph Smith got his translations right they would be showcased in the church periodicals. The only reason the church doesn't publish on this matter is because Joseph Smith got it all wrong and it destroys faith to even bring it up. The Mormon prophets don't know what to make of the Explanations of Facsimile No. 3. Elder Holland-ass even admitted that he doesn't understand the vehicle in which Joseph translates. But Holland should know better than to say that. Everyone knows that when you translate one language into another it's because you know two languages! It's like going from French to German but the words mean the same thing. But modern Egyptology has proven that Joseph Smith's words have nothing to do with Egyptian or the papyri in which he handled. Modern science has proven the Mormon prophet a liar.

Isn't it marvelous?

:razz:

Paul O



If Joseph Smith had gotten the translation right, there would be copies of the papyri hanging on the walls in every good Mormon’s house right next to their picture of Jesus and their local temple

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 Post subject: Re: Nightlion's Official Book of Abraham TA DA
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 6:49 pm 
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Nightlion wrote:
lostindc wrote:
Image


Did you want me to see the nightlion in the clouds above Jesus' outstretched arm?


I am not sure what is happening right now

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 Post subject: Re: Nightlion's Official Book of Abraham TA DA
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 8:53 pm 
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Oh boy, hold he phone, back up that car buddy. Stop right there. Okay now:

How is it I deserve to have such fun?

Earlier today I said that I might just spec finding out the answer to the whole Book of Abraham debacle. So, well, be careful what you set on the Back Burner there Mr. Nightlion and pay attention because you got incoming. I am right now writing this at the moment of discovery. So bear with me on this and allow me to think and rethink a couple of times at least but, hey, wowee! ( I've been at it for at least two hours now)

To set this up let's look at an example: If the Egyptian characters were ante-deluvial or not they were still confounded when the languages of the world got confused.
The sophistication of the original Egyptian was utterly lost and the Egyptians adopted a purely phonetic usage of the same hieroglyphs that before were highly complex and derivative. There would be no comparison between the old original language and the simple phonemes symbolized with classic hieroglyphs of what was to them a dead language.

Be that as it may. Joseph was already loaded up with the pure Adamic language, the language of the angels, well before Michael Chandler ever came to Kirtland with his mummies and papyrus. It is obvious that Joseph Smith included in his Book of Abraham words that were part of his Adamic lexicon. Adam-ondi-ahman is recorded as early as 1832. (D&C 78) I see now that many of these words have been taken out of the current edition of the D&C. lol dumb!
Is there a list somewhere?

In fact as far back as when Joseph Smith began to work on the translation of the Bible he encountered the notion of the language of Adam immediately and this was as early as at least the beginning of 1830. (seeherePerhaps earlier. I wont check right now.

Moses 6: 5, 57
5 And a book of remembrance was kept, in the which was recorded, in the language of Adam, for it was given unto as many as called upon God to write by the spirit of inspiration;
• • •
57 Wherefore teach it unto your children, that all men, everywhere, must repent, or they can in nowise inherit the kingdom of God, for no unclean thing can dwell there, or dwell in his presence; for, in the language of Adam, Man of Holiness is his name, and the name of his Only Begotten is the Son of Man, even Christ, a righteous Judge, who shall come in the meridian of time.


Joseph Smith was interested in his discovery of the original Adamic language. He used it all the time in the Doctrine and Covenants before Michael Chandler brought his mummies and papyrus to Kirtland. Good think I am old school. I hate any LDS scripture that contains a topical guide.

Here is the biggie folks: Joseph Smith was NOT attempting to read Egyptian. Yeah he may have said he was working on the translation of the Egyptian. But that is a misnomer. He was not interested in deciphering anything on the papyrus. He was translating in a different way. Insertion translation. He wanted to USE Egyptian characters to transliterate the Adamic language. Apparently the Adamic cannot be rendered well in English script or any script of phonemes. It required a more sophisticated script. Joseph wanted to use Egyptian characters to facilitate the complexity of rendering what he already knew of the Adamic which derived meaning on several compound layers.

The Confusion of languages was perhaps more a dumbing down of humanity lest it repeat its ante-deluvian ways. Gee, then we have taken a beating on our intellect and still keep on ticking. Amazing are we not? Perhaps we are thousands of years now recovering from the debilitating effects of Babel.

The joke is on academia. They are so certain that a purist learned academic endeavor to read the Egyptian was attempted or faked by Joseph Smith and failed utterly. In fact Joseph did not care a fig about learning to read Egyptian. He invented his Egyptian Alphabet and grammar to attempt to render the Adamic language but soon realized he had to abandon his project.

And even more academically jaded of him he used whatever was handy in the papyrus to render what he wanted to render without regard to what the script would have been saying originally. He was using it to express the Adamic Language and bullied it upon the facsimiles. What a brut! I like it. Joseph was riding the high places of the earth and carried up on eagle's wings with no way to share that and could not find a way. I suppose a proper disclaimer was his only crime. Such a pity. Probably was kept back because God wanted a great test to unleash later on down the road as I stated in my OP.

Two of his closest friends new that a test, a test was coming. Heber C. Kimball and Brigham Young both did.

For fifty years the haters of Joseph Smith have been celebrating a field day of abuse heaped up on him and killing much faith and justifying worse abuse giving license to every sort of evil surmising. Let's pull the plug on half of it.

The proof has to be that he did not change languages from his own pre-existing Adamic when he purported a "translation" of the papyrus. What do you think of that? I could give a fig. The scribe, W. W. Phelps, once said or wrote with some excitement that the discovery of the Adamic was their intent. Yes? Where is that quote?

When we get to the end of hoeing this row will Joseph Smith triumph over all his foes. Yes. Of course. What else?

Input?

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 Post subject: News Flash on My Book of Abraham OP read #15
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 9:04 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Nightlion's Official Book of Abraham TA DA
PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 12:21 am 
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Well, nobody wants to engage me so I will just shuffle off to no account.
I guess I might as well hit this next out of the park even though nobody wants to play.

Abraham 1:28
28 But I shall endeavor, hereafter, to delineate the chronology running back from myself to the beginning of the creation, for the records have come into my hands, which I hold unto this present time.


This is an admission by Abraham that he owned the records of the Father's from the beginning. This was what Noah carried with him on the ark. It is told in The Book of Jasher that Abraham was schooled by Shem the son of Noah. Which Shem was also Mechizedek the great high priest whose people found heaven and I have to suppose left Abraham behind to be a stranger in a strange land.

From this next scripture we realize something rather amazing.

Moses 6: 5, 57
5 And a book of remembrance was kept, in the which was recorded, in the language of Adam, for it was given unto as many as called upon God to write by the spirit of inspiration;


This tells us two pertinent things, Abraham had the a book that contained the pure Adamic language and this Adamic language is GIVEN unto as many as called upon God to write by the spirit of inspiration. Joseph Smith easily qualified as one who called upon God to write by the spirit of inspiration. So he was even more familiar with the Adamic than he let on.

I do not think Joseph had already written in the Book of Remembrance in the language of Adam. I think rather he was on the cusp of it and was already hearing much of what he would eventually write. Seems like he gave up on it suddenly. His struggle with the KEP was the end of it I suppose. Perhaps he was too troubled about failing to get Zion up and running knowing that the Kirtland Temple dedication was as close as he was going to get and his hope for Zion fell apart miserably afterward. No Zion was all downhill from then on. I think the realization of no Zion came home to roost in Joseph's heart. One more attempt by moving to Missouri but it was too much and not enough at the same time. They were cast out because they were not clean and worthy to keep it. None were truly wrought upon and cleansed by the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost. If there had been just a few nobody could have sent them packing.

What do you do when you realize you have not got the bricks to build what needs to be built? The Church was under condemnation. It never shook it. Joseph was at a loss to lead out when the people were not getting it. All the weight of the world on him and having to bring on polygamy when he really did not want to and nothing he preached could galvanize the Gentiles into a Zion. He wanted to be appointed elsewhere as he told the Relief Society in 1842. At the same time of his admitted despondency he published the Book of Abraham, like, oh yeah, I guess I will put this out there, I don't know why, the Lord knows, kind of shabby on the facsimiles. Oh well. What the heck. Kind of like the translation of the Bible. Who cares, nobody is getting it right. There is not going to be any Zion no time soon. So there is nothing to write in the Book of Remembrance, nothing memorable has occurred. There is no kingdom of God upon the earth for Joseph to write of. All is put off. The gift to learn the Adamic was rescinded. Could be why he fumbled with the facsimiles. Perhaps the 1842 equivalent to flipping off the Gentile hypocrisy that Mormonism had proven to be.

A prophet can only preach according to the faith of his hearers. There never was a powerful Zion sermon preached during the entire lifetime of Joseph Smith. Not once. It is everywhere written of in all the scriptures of the Restoration but not one great Zion moment ever occurred. And not even a blimp or bump up in the LDS Church since. Never.

The Mormons will have to take on polygamy now to stand apart from the world long enough for a latter-day to dawn when the Gentile's time fully comes to an end and the real Zion of promise is given a boost to come in. That's right now. Get stoked.

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 Post subject: Re: Nightlion's Official Book of Abraham TA DA
PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 4:25 am 
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Nightlion wrote:
I believe the Book of Abraham is a genuine revelation.


What is revealed within it that has any material value to us that we didn't already know from other, more credible sources?

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 Post subject: Re: Nightlion's Official Book of Abraham TA DA
PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 6:00 am 
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Drifting wrote:
Nightlion wrote:
I believe the Book of Abraham is a genuine revelation.


What is revealed within it that has any material value to us that we didn't already know from other, more credible sources?

Never were fewer scriptures packed with more meat than the Book of Abraham. It is the only scripture that portrays the Proto-existence of the organization of intelligence. Abraham has us there with our feet on the ground and God is explaining the different levels of intelligence and how they exist one above another until God who is greater than ALL. Possibly saying God is greater than the sum of all other intelligence.

This debunks that we can become God. Intelligence cannot be made. We will never be more intelligent that they all. And without the Book of Abraham I personally never could have rationalized my New Mormon Theology, or the duality of God and the gender differentiation set up and how very significant it is.

We see that the rebellion occurred BEFORE the Lord created the heavens and the earth where we came to dwell. This understanding helps us line up a proper chronology to realize that it is Adam and Eve who are the seed parents of our spirit bodies. Thus we make sense of the nonsense of the Adam-God confusion that Brigham Young suffered to never quite get a handle on.

From this we can reason that Adam was not the father of Jesus Christ and that he did not have sex with Mary and that removes a lot of embarrassment for the LDS.

We also can realize from the Book of Abraham that Satan is not the brother of Jesus knowing that Christ was the Beloved and Chosen from before the foundation of the earth.

Oh yeah, and this proto-existence is just that: Before the foundation of the earth...cool huh?

I will probably think of some more as this is just off the cuff and i got to get to work today.

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 Post subject: Re: Nightlion's Official Book of Abraham TA DA
PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 10:48 am 
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Nightlion wrote:
Joseph Smith was NOT attempting to read Egyptian. Yeah he may have said he was working on the translation of the Egyptian. But that is a misnomer. He was not interested in deciphering anything on the papyrus. He was translating in a different way.

Figure 2
King Pharaoh, whose name is given in the characters above his head.


Nightlion wrote:
Joseph Smith was NOT attempting to read Egyptian. Yeah he may have said he was working on the translation of the Egyptian. But that is a misnomer. He was not interested in deciphering anything on the papyrus. He was translating in a different way.

Figure 4
Prince of Pharaoh, King of Egypt, as written above the hand.


Nightlion wrote:
Joseph Smith was NOT attempting to read Egyptian. Yeah he may have said he was working on the translation of the Egyptian. But that is a misnomer. He was not interested in deciphering anything on the papyrus. He was translating in a different way.

Figure 5
Shulem, one of the king's principal waiters, as represented by the characters above his hand


Nightlion wrote:
Joseph Smith was NOT attempting to read Egyptian. Yeah he may have said he was working on the translation of the Egyptian. But that is a misnomer. He was not interested in deciphering anything on the papyrus. He was translating in a different way.

Facsimile No. 2 Fig. 5.
Is called in Egyptian Enish-go-on-dosh; this is one of the governing planets also, and is said by the Egyptians to be the Sun, and to borrow its light from Kolob through the medium of Kae-e-vanrash, which is the grand Key, or, in other words, the governing power, which governs fifteen other fixed planets or stars, as also Floeese or the Moon, the Earth and the Sun in their annual revolutions. This planet receives its power through the medium of Kli-flos-is-es, or Hah-ko-kau-beam, the stars represented by numbers 22 and 23, receiving light from the revolutions of Kolob.
The above translation is given as far as we have any right to give at the present time
.


Paul O

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Last edited by Shulem on Wed Jan 10, 2018 11:42 am, edited 1 time in total.

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