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 Post subject: "For the power is in them."
PostPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2012 6:00 am 
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27 Verily I say, men should be anxiously engaged in a good cause, and do many things of their own free will, and bring to pass much righteousness;
28 For the power is in them, wherein they are agents unto themselves. And inasmuch as men do good they shall in nowise lose their reward.
29 But he that doeth not anything until he is commanded, and receiveth a commandment with doubtful heart, and keepeth it with slothfulness, the same is damned.
30 Who am I that made man, saith the Lord, that will hold him guiltless that obeys not my commandments?
31 Who am I, saith the Lord, that have promised and have not fulfilled?
32 I command and men obey not; I revoke and they receive not the blessing.
33 Then they say in their hearts: This is not the work of the Lord, for his promises are not fulfilled. But wo unto such, for their reward lurketh beneath, and not from above. (D&C 58: 27-33).


Think carefully, and work out your salvation with fear and trembling. Guard your mouth.

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5 Even so the tongue is a little member, and boasteth great things. Behold, how great a matter a little fire kindleth!
6 And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell.
7 For every kind of beasts, and of birds, and of serpents, and of things in the sea, is tamed, and hath been tamed of mankind:
8 But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison. (James 3:5-8)


Use your short time on earth wisely, because in a moment; in the blink of an eye, it will be gone....

Quote:
3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.
4 Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;
6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;
7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.
8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity. (1st Corinthians 13)


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8 And above all things have fervent charity among yourselves: for charity shall cover the multitude of sins. (1Peter: 4:8)


When I was 20 years old I became a Mormon, and after reading the Book of Mormon, my heart was set on fire, but it was not to be an everlasting fire, and to this day I don't know why. Or maybe it still has an effect upon me. That I cannot explain. All I know is that we "ex-Mormons" ought to have more respect for this religion, and a greater sense of fairness and balance when "assessing it", especially since we were once a part of the fold. To willfully expose them to ridicule and persecution, and to join the crowds that gather in "the great and spacious building", and adding to their persecution, does not seem right to me. It would be better to abandon "boards" altogether, and live in peace, and let the Mormons be, than to contribute to their afflictions and persecutions, especially as former believers. They won't ruin America, and they won't ruin the world. If anything, they will make both a better place to live. Regardless of controversial origins, their ethical and moral standards are impeccable, and out of their "standard works" has come a flowering of righteousness, which only the most cynical can disdain. It may well be hypothesised that "in the last days, the house of the Lord shall be established in the mountain tops - and all nations shall flow unto it", because they will become the standard bearers. And perhaps this goes back to what's stated in the scriptures, over, and over, and over, so many times, that only in heeding and obeying the word of God is there prosperity and peace. I choke on that, probably because of my weakness, but I have to acknowledge that I think it's true. Like Sampson, with the walls crumbling all around me, I ask from one more grace, one more moment of God's power in my life, because I don't have the willpower of a Nephi, or a Paul.

Be good, and be careful, and respect the "things of God". We have one life, and an eternity to contemplate it.

Let the psychoanalysis begin, lol.


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 Post subject: Re: "For the power is in them."
PostPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2012 9:25 am 
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RayAgostini wrote:
my heart was set on fire


Should have taken a Tums. Would have saved you a lot of problems.

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 Post subject: Re: "For the power is in them."
PostPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2012 10:09 am 
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Well, I disagree that Mormonism will make this world a better place. If they would stop persecuting homosexuals and drop their racist scriptures and sexist practices than maybe we could agree. Oh, and also drop all the unhealthy teaching about sex and sexuality.

As long as my children are still involved with the church I will be unable to "leave it alone."

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~The Goddess is not separate from the world-She is the world and all things in it.~


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 Post subject: Re: "For the power is in them."
PostPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2012 10:26 am 
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When I was a missionary trying to "bring people to Christ through the waters of baptism," the goal entailed encouraging people to leave the faith communities to which they already belonged and, quite often, break their mothers' hearts by doing so. They often said that they already belonged to a good church, were already good people, were already square with God. Our response was, "the biggest enemy of greatness isn't badness, but rather mere goodness."

There are any number of belief systems and lifestyles that are worse than Mormonism. But some of their teachings are not true, and embracing them isn't always healthy.

Every year the church spends billions of dollars of money and volunteer time trying to convince others that their church is "the only true and living church upon the earth in which God is pleased," and telling them that they have to leave their former churches, join Mormonism, commense giving the Mormon church 10% of their income, and consecrate their money, time, talents, energy, and everything with which they've been blessed to building up the Mormon Church. It isn't healthy to give the church the level of dedication it demands.

As long as the Church places such unhealthy demands on its members and has such an aggresive proselytizing mission, there is nothing wrong with people who have been there and done that to put their candles on a hill and tell the world the truth about that church.

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-Yuval Noah Harari


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 Post subject: Re: "For the power is in them."
PostPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2012 11:00 am 
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RayAgostini wrote:
When I was 20 years old I became a Mormon, and after reading the Book of Mormon, my heart was set on fire, but it was not to be an everlasting fire, and to this day I don't know why. Or maybe it still has an effect upon me...

And perhaps this goes back to what's stated in the scriptures, over, and over, and over, so many times, that only in heeding and obeying the word of God is there prosperity and peace. I choke on that...


Somehow you remind me of the song Shooting Shark by Blue Oyster Cult:

Well I bumped inside the magic man
And he laid some tricks on me
He said, "you do need help my friend"
I whispered, "obviously"
He laid a spread of jacks and queens
And he bade me take my pick
But every face it had your face
I cried out, "i am sick"

Sick of hauling your love around
Want to run the train alone
But the engine tracks straight through your heart
And weighs me like a stone

Oh, it's a hard load to love you
It takes up all my time, having you
So familiar
Like last life's
Nursery rhyme

So I gave away the pictures
And your golden ring
And the phone calls you sent me
And the silver birds that sing
Then the man he told me something
That really brought me down
Your things were thrown away, it's true
But you were still in town

Sick of hauling your love around
Wanna run the train alone
But the engine tracks straight through your heart
And weighs me like a stone

Oh, it's a hard load to love you
It takes up all my time, having you
So familiar
Like last life's
Nursery rhyme

The magician let a message
It flashes when I hide
Accept the chains of loving
Accept or else remove yourself from her side
And do without her love
And I lay back with a steel chain
I keep it by my side
I could mail a letter to you but I still
Have my pride

Sick of hauling your love around
Wanna run the train alone
But the engine tracks straight through your heart
And weighs me like a stone

Three times I've sent you back from me
Three times my bones gone dry
And three times I've seen the shooting shark
Lighting up the sky

Oh, it's a hard load to love you, babe
It takes my breath away
The fourth time round
Is the last time round
There's nothing else to say

_________________
It’s relatively easy to agree that only Homo sapiens can speak about things that don’t really exist, and believe six impossible things before breakfast. You could never convince a monkey to give you a banana by promising him limitless bananas after death in monkey heaven.

-Yuval Noah Harari


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 Post subject: Re: "For the power is in them."
PostPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2012 11:25 am 
RayAgostini wrote:
When I was 20 years old I became a Mormon, and after reading the Book of Mormon, my heart was set on fire, but it was not to be an everlasting fire, and to this day I don't know why. Or maybe it still has an effect upon me. That I cannot explain. All I know is that we "ex-Mormons" ought to have more respect for this religion, and a greater sense of fairness and balance when "assessing it", especially since we were once a part of the fold. To willfully expose them to ridicule and persecution, and to join the crowds that gather in "the great and spacious building", and adding to their persecution, does not seem right to me. It would be better to abandon "boards" altogether, and live in peace, and let the Mormons be, than to contribute to their afflictions and persecutions, especially as former believers. They won't ruin America, and they won't ruin the world. If anything, they will make both a better place to live. Regardless of controversial origins, their ethical and moral standards are impeccable, and out of their "standard works" has come a flowering of righteousness, which only the most cynical can disdain.


Calls for civility certainly have their place and I certainly could do better, but you're going to the other extreme. It sounds like you're suggesting any type of critique of the LDS should be abandoned.
Whatever else the church is, it is important to know if the church is what it claims to be. Members of the church deserve to know the information found on sites like MormonThink. They deserve to know the other side of the story. If they wish to continue believing after they know, that's fine.
Also boards like these can provide a community for those who do not know anyone else IRL who have lost their faith in the Mormon church.


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 Post subject: Re: "For the power is in them."
PostPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2012 9:30 pm 
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I think there is a lot of wisdom in the scriptures Ray shared. I admire him for his love of wisdom, and I think he is right that unwarranted and excessive criticism is a problem. On the other hand, I can't imagine that the world would be a better place without criticism, and there is such thing as warranted and useful criticism. I can't imagine that the world would be a healthy place if it were filled with "yes men."

A number of criticisms lodged on this board take aim at those areas in which the LDS Church has failed to come anywhere close to living up to its best ideals. I don't believe that criticizing such failures is a bad thing. Nor do I hold criticizing an organization to be the same thing as attacking an individual.

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“God came to me in a dream last night and showed me the future. He took me to heaven and I saw Donald Trump seated at the right hand of our Lord.” ~ Pat Robertson
“He says he has eyes to see things that are not . . . and that the angel of the Lord . . . has put him in possession of great wealth, gold, silver, precious stones.” ~ Jesse Smith


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 Post subject: Re: "For the power is in them."
PostPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2012 10:30 pm 
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They won't ruin America, and they won't ruin the world. If anything, they will make both a better place to live. Regardless of controversial origins, their ethical and moral standards are impeccable, and out of their "standard works" has come a flowering of righteousness, ...


It is only when we replace politics for compassion do we flounder. Otherwise, Ray is spot on about the potentials of the LDS people.

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 Post subject: Re: "For the power is in them."
PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2012 12:15 am 
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just me wrote:
Well, I disagree that Mormonism will make this world a better place. If they would stop persecuting homosexuals and drop their racist scriptures and sexist practices than maybe we could agree. Oh, and also drop all the unhealthy teaching about sex and sexuality.

As long as my children are still involved with the church I will be unable to "leave it alone."



Are you speaking about teaching morality? And have you ever been in a morgue where they 'classify' people according to race, color, etc.? chase ''em down!!


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 Post subject: Re: "For the power is in them."
PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2012 8:39 am 
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I have always had a respect for you Ray, from my first moments on this board. I think that many of us can relate to powerful personal experiences which stemmed from, or we relate to the Church. I believe a fundamental desire of all mankind is that some force out there might provide a rescue from ourselves.

Oh Come, Oh Come Emmanuel

"It may well be hypothesised that "in the last days, the house of the Lord shall be established in the mountain tops - and all nations shall flow unto it", because they will become the standard bearers. And perhaps this goes back to what's stated in the scriptures, over, and over, and over, so many times, that only in heeding and obeying the word of God is there prosperity and peace."

To me, it seems the promise has resulted in the likes of The house of the Lord and I sometimes feel betrayed and angry. I'm not sure that’s a bad thing to share from time to time Ray.


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 Post subject: Re: "For the power is in them."
PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2012 10:49 am 
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Sandra wrote:
And have you ever been in a morgue where they 'classify' people according to race, color, etc.? chase ''em down!!


How is this the same as what just me described?

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 Post subject: Re: "For the power is in them."
PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2012 11:14 am 
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Sandra wrote:
just me wrote:
Well, I disagree that Mormonism will make this world a better place. If they would stop persecuting homosexuals and drop their racist scriptures and sexist practices than maybe we could agree. Oh, and also drop all the unhealthy teaching about sex and sexuality.

As long as my children are still involved with the church I will be unable to "leave it alone."



Are you speaking about teaching morality? And have you ever been in a morgue where they 'classify' people according to race, color, etc.? chase ''em down!!


I am speaking about the teachings and preaching of the LDS church. Are you not familiar with them? Many of them are unhealthy and discriminatory. That is what I am talking about.

You're comment about the morgue is completely irrelevant.

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~The Goddess is not separate from the world-She is the world and all things in it.~


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 Post subject: Re: "For the power is in them."
PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2012 1:15 pm 
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just me wrote:

I am speaking about the teachings and preaching of the LDS church. Are you not familiar with them? Many of them are unhealthy and discriminatory. That is what I am talking about.

You're comment about the morgue is completely irrelevant.



No it isn't. You just don't want to see that your fundamental reasoning is faulty...

You are focused by hate based bias...


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 Post subject: Re: "For the power is in them."
PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2012 1:17 pm 
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Sandra wrote:
just me wrote:

I am speaking about the teachings and preaching of the LDS church. Are you not familiar with them? Many of them are unhealthy and discriminatory. That is what I am talking about.

You're comment about the morgue is completely irrelevant.



No it isn't. You just don't want to see that your fundamental reasoning is faulty...

You are focused by hate based bias...


Show me how labeling dead bodies has anything to do with the teaching that masturbating is sinful or that women are banned from the priesthood. Thanks.

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~The Goddess is not separate from the world-She is the world and all things in it.~


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 Post subject: Re: "For the power is in them."
PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2012 1:28 pm 
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just me wrote:
Sandra wrote:


No it isn't. You just don't want to see that your fundamental reasoning is faulty...

You are focused by hate based bias...


Show me how labeling dead bodies has anything to do with the teaching that masturbating is sinful or that women are banned from the priesthood. Thanks.


So... lets put this clearly. You want to connect racism with immorality. Both come from a sick mind.

Immorality is a sickness that is rejected by whole people who see it for what it is, i.e. a destructive act.

Racism is a sickness that is rejected by whole people who see it for what it is, and what it isn't. It is hate for a race based on race. What it isn't: Speaking about a race as a people. Speaking about general situations that effect that people.


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 Post subject: Re: "For the power is in them."
PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2012 1:31 pm 
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Sandra wrote:

So... lets put this clearly. You want to connect racism with immorality. Both come from a sick mind.

Immorality is a sickness that is rejected by whole people who see it for what it is, i.e. a destructive act.

Racism is a sickness that is rejected by whole people who see it for what it is, and what it isn't. It is hate for a race based on race. What it isn't: Speaking about a race as a people. Speaking about general situations that effect that people.


The accepted usage also includes discrimination against a group of people.

Speaking negative lies about an entire group of people seems awfully racist to me.

Again, what does this have to do with the morgue? Nothing.

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~The Goddess is not separate from the world-She is the world and all things in it.~


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 Post subject: Re: "For the power is in them."
PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2012 1:44 pm 
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just me wrote:
Sandra wrote:

So... lets put this clearly. You want to connect racism with immorality. Both come from a sick mind.

Immorality is a sickness that is rejected by whole people who see it for what it is, i.e. a destructive act.

Racism is a sickness that is rejected by whole people who see it for what it is, and what it isn't. It is hate for a race based on race. What it isn't: Speaking about a race as a people. Speaking about general situations that effect that people.


The accepted usage also includes discrimination against a group of people.

Speaking negative lies about an entire group of people seems awfully racist to me.

Again, what does this have to do with the morgue? Nothing.




What we need to establish is what is considered discrimination? I see no discrimination in the passage quoted from the BofM.. No one is telling the Jews they can't have stuff that everyone else is getting.. It is actually telling them that they wanted more and because they wanted more... they were going to get more...

Negative lies...?? in whose official opinion..? Show me proof that these were lies.. you are just spouting your own brand of lies... and accusations..

The morgue was brought in (as you well know) to demonstrate that even the official governmental offices use typing and labeling of races without any racism.. you just want everything LDS do to have the label without considering the world we live in as a whole. You want to isolate to do your own prejudicial discriminating ...


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 Post subject: Re: "For the power is in them."
PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2012 2:21 pm 
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just me wrote:
Well, I disagree that Mormonism will make this world a better place. If they would stop persecuting homosexuals and drop their racist scriptures and sexist practices than maybe we could agree. Oh, and also drop all the unhealthy teaching about sex and sexuality.

As long as my children are still involved with the church I will be unable to "leave it alone."


This is nonsense. The LDS church does not persecute homosexuals. Nor is the LDS church a racist church. Nor is the teaching about sexuality and sex unhealthy. Just ask all the teenagers that have caught a std, including herpes. The teaching of the LDS church is now up against the world and its loose value structures. But that does not make it unhealthy.

However, I am glad that you are now being more truthful in your posts. You have come out of the closet and are no longer playing the timid mom whose mouth prefers to be closed in meetings.

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 Post subject: Re: "For the power is in them."
PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2012 2:24 pm 
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just me wrote:

The accepted usage also includes discrimination against a group of people.

Speaking negative lies about an entire group of people seems awfully racist to me.


This is nonsense too. What lies? What discrimination? Here is the fact: no one was denied membership in the LDS church based on color or sexuality. All could sit in the same pews as anyone else. I think that you must be thinking of a different church.

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I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world.
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We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…”
Joseph Smith


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 Post subject: Re: "For the power is in them."
PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2012 2:35 pm 
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why me wrote:
just me wrote:

The accepted usage also includes discrimination against a group of people.

Speaking negative lies about an entire group of people seems awfully racist to me.


This is nonsense too. What lies?


This is a good thread to show some ares where the church is not being truthful.
http://mormondiscussions.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=23103

Quote:
What discrimination?


The church used to discriminate against black males with the priesthood. It still discriminates against women with the priesthood.

Quote:
Here is the fact: no one was denied membership in the LDS church based on color or sexuality. All could sit in the same pews as anyone else. I think that you must be thinking of a different church.


Is this your way to try and divert from what the church does deny.

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 Post subject: Re: "For the power is in them."
PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2012 4:06 pm 
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Sandra wrote:
What we need to establish is what is considered discrimination? I see no discrimination in the passage quoted from the BofM.. No one is telling the Jews they can't have stuff that everyone else is getting.. It is actually telling them that they wanted more and because they wanted more... they were going to get more...

Negative lies...?? in whose official opinion..? Show me proof that these were lies.. you are just spouting your own brand of lies... and accusations..

The morgue was brought in (as you well know) to demonstrate that even the official governmental offices use typing and labeling of races without any racism.. you just want everything LDS do to have the label without considering the world we live in as a whole. You want to isolate to do your own prejudicial discriminating ...


Let's bring this back to what my original comment was about. The one that caused you to post your very bizarre remark about the morgue.

I am not okay with my children being taught that women should not have the priesthood or every opportunity available to men.
I am not okay with my children being taught that masturbation is a sin. I don't want them being asked by a man in a closed room if they touch themselves.
I am not okay with my children being taught that God didn't want black people to have the priesthood or "blessings of the temple" until 1978.
I am not okay with my children being taught that God turned the Lamanites "dark" because of wickedness. I don't want them taught that the "Lamanites" were lazy and loathsome.
I don't want my children taught that homosexuality is evil or that homosexuals don't deserve all the rights and privileges given to heterosexual people.
I don't want them taught that there is something wrong with doubt or questioning authority.
I don't want them to grow up JUDGING everyone around them for everything from wearing a tank top to drinking a cup of coffee.

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~Those who benefit from the status quo always attribute inequities to the choices of the underdog.~Ann Crittenden
~The Goddess is not separate from the world-She is the world and all things in it.~


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