Nature of the Godhead

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_Gazelam
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Nature of the Godhead

Post by _Gazelam »

I had an interesting conversation going with Fortigurn earlier, and I tohught I'd invite others in and get everyones comments on the subject. I'll repost our conversation from the other thread, then post a new response.

Gaz:
The real Doctrine for Godhood from a Biblical perspective would be found in John 17:19-23. It describes both how Christ is one with the Father, and how we can be one with the Father, in essence, Gods.


Fort: Where does it say that becoming one with the Father there means 'in essence, Gods'?


Gaz:
Well if your one with God, then how will you be spending your time?

How does God spend his time? What does he do? Are we to think that if we are spending time with God we simply dance and sing songs and play harps? What purpose would that serve?

"This is my work and my glory, to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man." Moses 1:39

If we are one with Christ, and He is one with the Father, then we will aquire the same culture and attitudes and trains of thoughts that they have, and will be doing the same work. that's the point of all of this. To be sure there wil be those who fall short, that is why there are "many mansions". But the ultimate goal, to be one, is to become all that our Father is.




Fort: Gazelam wrote:
Well if your one with God, then how will you be spending your time?


What has this to do with anything?


Quote:
How does God spend his time? What does he do?


All kinds of things, according to the Bible.


Quote:
Are we to think that if we are spending time with God we simply dance and sing songs and play harps? What purpose would that serve?


Not in the least. How does asking me questions prove that being one with God means we're going to become gods?


Quote:
If we are one with Christ, and He is one with the Father, then we will aquire the same culture and attitudes and trains of thoughts that they have, and will be doing the same work. that's the point of all of this. To be sure there wil be those who fall short, that is why there are "many mansions". But the ultimate goal, to be one, is to become all that our Father is.


I'm sorry, but there's nothing here which answers my question, which was how you derive from the New Testament text quoted, that we will become gods.



Gaz:
John 17
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.


How many ways can this be interpreted?

Christ is our example and our Savior. As he is one with his Father (Gods both) So we are to be one with Christ by following him. That is his prayer to the Father. That is also to be our prayer. We are to lose our selfishness and work with the Fatehr in bringing the culture of heaven to those who do not have it.

We are to be perfect as Christ and the Father are perfect. We are to follow Christs example and exemplify his actions. To gain the mind and will of the Father through Christ.

And what did Christ receive? And what are we to receive if we live up to the covenants we make?



Fort: (Gods both)...


I've highlighted the assumption here.


Quote:
We are to be perfect as Christ and the Father are perfect. We are to follow Christs example and exemplify his actions. To gain the mind and will of the Father through Christ.


I agree totally with this. It doesn't mean we are gods.


The Father is without question God.

Are you saying Christ is not God? Christ expressed that "I came down from Heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me." (John 6:38)

Later when questioned he answers:
54 Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:
55 Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying.
56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

Christ was the God that Abraham spoke with and of. Christ was the God Moses spoke face to face with. And if Christ is God, and states that he is in the service of his Father, and that his goal is to make us one with both of them, then there is without question a purpose of life and a plurality of Gods.

Gaz



Fort: Gazelam wrote:
The Father is without question God.


I agree.


Quote:
Are you saying Christ is not God?


Absolutely.


Quote:
Christ expressed that "I came down from Heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me." (John 6:38)


And? The manna 'came down from heaven' too, but that didn't mean it wafted down from the sky, existing before it, er, existed.


Quote:
Later when questioned he answers:
54 Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:
55 Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying.
56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.



What are you trying to say with this?


Quote:
Christ was the God that Abraham spoke with and of. Christ was the God Moses spoke face to face with.


That is not what the Bible says.


Quote:
And if Christ is God, and states that he is in the service of his Father, and that his goal is to make us one with both of them, then there is without question a purpose of life and a plurality of Gods.


If there is a plurality of gods, then the Bible is wrong.


Gaz:
Exodus 3:13-15

13 And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them?
14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
15 And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, The Lord God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations.


Christ declared himself to be I Am to the Jews (John 8:56-59)

Bible DICTIONARY
Jehovah
The covenant or proper name of the God of Israel. It denotes the “Unchangeable One,” “the eternal I AM” (Ex. 6: 3; Ps. 83: 18; Isa. 12: 2; Isa. 26: 4). The original pronunciation of this name has possibly been lost, as the Jews, in reading, never mentioned it, but substituted one of the other names of God, usually Adonai. Probably it was pronounced Jahveh, or Yahveh. In the KJV, the Jewish custom has been followed, and the name is generally denoted by LORD or GOD, printed in small capitals.
Jehovah is the premortal Jesus Christ and came to earth being born of Mary (see Mosiah 13: 28; Mosiah 15: 1; 3 Ne. 15: 1-5; D&C 110: 1-10). Although Ex. 6: 3 states that the God of Israel was not known by the name Jehovah before Moses’ time, latter-day revelation tells us otherwise (Abr. 1: 16; Abr. 2: 8; cf. JST Ex. 6: 3); see also Gen. 22: 14).

This in no way makes the Bible wrong. We worship the Father in the name of the Son by the power of the Holy Ghost. All three are Gods, and all three work as one to bring to pas our salvation and to prove us worthy of greater things.



Fort: Jesus did not declare himself to be 'I Am' to the Jews. The Greek used in John 8 is different to the equivalent Greek of Exodus 3:14 in the LXX.

The problem with this is that it makes Jesus to be Yahweh. This means that the Father is not Yahweh. Confusion promptly abounds, since the Bible says that Yahweh is the father of Jesus.

The Bible denies that there are any other gods but Yahweh, who is identified as the Father. This is precisely why LDS apologists have to claim that the Old Testament was corrupted and the true polytheistic religion suppressed by later 'extreme monotheists'.



Fort:
Jesus did not declare himself to be 'I Am' to the Jews. The Greek used in John 8 is different to the equivalent Greek of Exodus 3:14 in the LXX.


Gaz: Could you show us this example?


Fort: Sure. The LXX says EGO EIMI HO WN. The text in John 8 says EGO EIMI. One is the declarative name of God, the other is not.


Fort:
The problem with this is that it makes Jesus to be Yahweh. This means that the Father is not Yahweh. Confusion promptly abounds, since the Bible says that Yahweh is the father of Jesus.



Gaz: reference please.


Fort: Reference that you called Jesus Yahweh? See your post. Reference that Yahweh is the father of Jesus? Psalms 2 and 110.


Gaz:
I don't know anyone who doesent state that the Bible has had a rough ride over the years as far as transcriptions of scribes goes.


That's a different issue to claiming that what we have now is not what was written then.

Gaz:I read "Misquoteing Jesus" last year and it gave some interesting insights into how scripture traveled through time.

Fort: Erhman's not a bad scholars in this area, but he does exaggerate (I read 'The Orthodox Corruptions of Scripture', also by Erhman, which was more rigorous).





Gaz:
There are a few spots in the Doctrine and Covenants where One member of the Godhead is speaking, and actually changes person in the middle of the text. whre earlier it was Christ undoubtably speaking, and the next it is the Fatehr making reference to the Son.

This is what is known as divine investiture of authority. It is how the Godhead are truly one.


Fort: Or it's just Smith losing track of who's supposed to be talking. The Bible doesn't make this mistake.



Fort:
The LXX says EGO EIMI HO WN. The text in John 8 says EGO EIMI. One is the declarative name of God, the other is not.



Gaz: This is interesting. Could you break it down for me a litle more? How do each of those words translate? What is the translation of EGO EIMI and what does the addition of the HO WN do to it?


Fort: * EGO EIMI HO WN, 'I am the One who is', or 'I am the One who continues to be'

* EGO EIMI 'I am' (a term of common speech, found spoken by a number of people in the gospels, and not a divine title)



Fort: Reference that Yahweh is the father of Jesus? Psalms 2 and 110.

Gaz: I only have a King James version of the Bible. I don't see your reference.


Fort: Ok, let's use the KJV:



Psalm 2:
7 I will declare the decree: the LORD [Hebrew, 'Yahweh'] hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; [Christ] this day have I begotten thee.


So Yahweh is the father of Christ.


Psalm 110:
1 The LORD [Hebrew, 'Yahweh'] said unto my [King David] Lord, [Christ] Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.


Fort: This psalm is the most commonly quoted Old Testament passage in the New Testament, and is expounded by both Christ and the apostles as referring to the messiah (Christ), as the son of God (Yahweh). So you can see that according to the Old Testament, Yahweh is the Father (Yahweh is not Christ).


Gaz:
It has always been my understanding that the only time the Father makes an appearence in the scriptures is when he introduces Christ.


Fort: No, there are references to the Father appearing which do not involve an introduction to Christ.


Gaz:
All authority had been turned over to the Savior, and it is the Savior we deal with. That is what Christ is saying when he declares himself to be YAHWEH, and it is why they sought to stone him. He was declareing exactly who he was.


Christ never declared himself to be Yahweh.
We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light. - Plato
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