Scratch's Blog wins Honorable Mention in MAD Ceremony

[_Mister Scratch]

Scratch:

I am not denying this, Gaz. I am saying that this is a matter of faith. Why do you have such a problem with that statement? Odd, too, that you think it is necessary to couch your remarks in personal attack.

What personal attack.

This:

It seems you never studied at all.

I was merely making an observation. If you took it as an insult the observation must have hit too close to home.

Oh, okay---and I guess my "observation" that you seem to consistently and habitually mis-read the scriptures you quote "must have hit too close to home" for you too, eh?

My point I am making is that it doesent have to be a matter of faith, you can know for a fact, that's the entire point of the Holy Ghost, that's his whole job.

It appears that you have a very different view of what a 'fact' is than I do.

And yet where is the material evidence? Again, my friend: this is a matter of faith rather than logical, material reality

The company of the Holy Ghost fills a person with spiritual light, and another name for the Holy Ghost is the comforter, becasue he gives a person that feeling and assurance and warmth. Is that physical enough for you?

No, it's not. You have to take it on faith that it is the HG who is causing the 'burning in the bosom.' There is no evidence for the HG that we can all scrutinize and analyze.

I know from my experience that the gospel is true, because the words of the prophets were fullfilled when I put them to the test.

No, I criticize those who want to "promote faith and values" at the expense of truth.

If you yourself don't know what truth is, please explain how you do this.

By pointing out "hypocrisy".

I see faith as being primarily a personal matter, and in fact think that "promoting" it can cheapen it somewhat.

I remember on my mission I was asked by my trainer, at the train station when I first arrived in Scotland, to walk up to a stranger and ask him if we could come to his home and teach him. His answer was "I think faith is a personal matter and I don't like to discuss it." That was my first experience in sharing the gospel with someone on my mission.

There is a clear difference, in my opinion, between "sharing" and "promoting."

what shape do oyu think the world would be in if all of the prophets, or even Christ himself, had that same attitude? "Well I know how I feel about it, but I don't think I should share my feelings, because ultimately its a personal matter."

I think there is a clear and distinct difference btween "sharing" vs. "promoting."

Its a good thing Moses didn't feel that way, All of the Jews would have remained in captivity in Egypt. If Christ felt that way there would be no Plan of Redemption.

A false analogy.

The fact of the matter is that there is such a thing as absolute truth, It is an absolute truth that Christ is the great redeemer. It is an absolute truth that it is the Fathers work and glory to bring about the immortality and eternal life of man. It is an absolute truth that baptism is not recognized unless it is administered by proper authority. It is an absolute truth that Joseph Smith was visited by the Father and the Son. Kind of narrows the field of correct views rather quickly doesent it?

How do you figure? By faith? Or Logic?

John 17:3
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

It is not life eternal to know opinions and half truths.

Silly facts and truth are unimportant in the light of faith anyways, right?

Wrong

Ah. So then you accept that Joseph Smith behaved in immoral ways when he married other men's wives, and young girls such as Helen Mar? You agree that BY's racist speeches are despicable? You have no problem accepting the Book of Mormon as being pure allegory?

[_Gazelam]

It seems you never studied at all.

Well in our discussions you expressed that you had no understanhding of the Laws of God nor the resurrection, Both of these are very basic religious concepts. I would suppose someone who spent as much time in religious forums as you have would grasp these concepts. From this I garnered that you don't study, at least not anything of importance in regards to your faith.

Oh, okay---and I guess my "observation" that you seem to consistently and habitually mis-read the scriptures you quote "must have hit too close to home" for you too, eh?

It would have if you had ever shown it. You didn't.

It appears that you have a very different view of what a 'fact' is than I do.

Please explain to me the mission and purpose of the Holy Ghost as you see it. You may choose to use 1 Cor. 2:9-16 if you wish.

No, it's not. You have to take it on faith that it is the HG who is causing the 'burning in the bosom.' There is no evidence for the HG that we can all scrutinize and analyze.

Well I put Moronis promise to the test, and it worked. I also saw it work with a number of people on my mission, who had no intention of being baptised until they did get an answer to their prayers. I would say that is a fair assesment of the test being shown to be true.

There is a clear difference, in my opinion, between "sharing" and "promoting."

Please elaborate.

A false analogy.

How so?

How do you figure? By faith? Or Logic?

By witness of the Spirit.

Ah. So then you accept that Joseph Smith behaved in immoral ways when he married other men's wives, and young girls such as Helen Mar? You agree that BY's racist speeches are despicable? You have no problem accepting the Book of Mormon as being pure allegory?

If Joseph Smith was immoral, the Lord would have rejected him and the Spirit left him. Seeing as he lived his life in crecendo, the allegation and testimony of witnesses shown the accusation false. Brighams statements were true at the time. The Book of Mormon is not allegory, except where allegory is used as a teaching device. It is a historical record, and time will prove it to be so. The Spirit already witnesses it as such.

Gaz

[_harmony]

If Joseph Smith was immoral, the Lord would have rejected him and the Spirit left him. Seeing as he lived his life in crecendo, the allegation and testimony of witnesses shown the accusation false.

Substantiate this please. Because there are many who feel that the Spirit did leave Joseph, and that he produced nothing of value once the Book of Mormon was finished.

[_Mister Scratch]

It appears that you have a very different view of what a 'fact' is than I do.

Please explain to me the mission and purpose of the Holy Ghost as you see it. You may choose to use 1 Cor. 2:9-16 if you wish.

The mission and purpose of the HG is to minister to matters of faith. And no, I don't wish to use 1 Cor.

No, it's not. You have to take it on faith that it is the HG who is causing the 'burning in the bosom.' There is no evidence for the HG that we can all scrutinize and analyze.

Well I put Moronis promise to the test, and it worked. I also saw it work with a number of people on my mission, who had no intention of being baptised until they did get an answer to their prayers. I would say that is a fair assesment of the test being shown to be true.

Yes, "true" in a spiritual sense! Why do you need it to be more than that?

There is a clear difference, in my opinion, between "sharing" and "promoting."

Please elaborate.

One involves a kind of "hard sell." The other is done between friends.

How do you figure? By faith? Or Logic?

By witness of the Spirit.

Which means, "by faith."

Ah. So then you accept that Joseph Smith behaved in immoral ways when he married other men's wives, and young girls such as Helen Mar? You agree that BY's racist speeches are despicable? You have no problem accepting the Book of Mormon as being pure allegory?

If Joseph Smith was immoral, the Lord would have rejected him and the Spirit left him. Seeing as he lived his life in crecendo, the allegation and testimony of witnesses shown the accusation false. Brighams statements were true at the time. The Book of Mormon is not allegory, except where allegory is used as a teaching device. It is a historical record, and time will prove it to be so. The Spirit already witnesses it as such.

Gaz

All of your remarks, Gaz, force you to sweep unpleasant facts under the rug. Look how many times you are using words that have a spiritual connotations, words such as "Spirit," or "testimony," or "witnesses." This is a fundamentally spiritual statement, not a factual or logical statement.

Look: I have no problem with faith. I think faith is a good thing. I would even go so far as to say that it is often good to use faith to deal with more concrete, factual, material matters, such as when ministering to the sick. That said, I *do* have a problem when people insist that faith trumps everything else. It does not. Faith exists in a realm which is connected to but quite separate from most of what we do in life.

My big question to you is: What is at stake in your insistence that matters of faith are "real" in the same sense as the air you breathe, or the car you drive to work, or the eggs you ate for breakfast? Why do these things (for you) need to be equivalent in terms of their material reality?

[_Gazelam]

All of your remarks, Gaz, force you to sweep unpleasant facts under the rug. Look how many times you are using words that have a spiritual connotations, words such as "Spirit," or "testimony," or "witnesses." This is a fundamentally spiritual statement, not a factual or logical statement.

For an example of this, lets look at a well known example. Matthew 16:13-17. Christ asks the disciples who the people say he is, and they give a few answers in regards to the rumors floating around. Then he asks them, who do you think I am? A heavy question, And Peter answered and said, you are the Son of God. And how did Peter know this? He had prayed to the Father and received a witness of the Spirit. That means that by the Spirit he knew a fact. And it is the same way with me. I put Moronis promise to the test, and now I know for a fact what is true regarding Jesus Christ. There are many Christs presented in the world, it is our responsibility to find the correct doctrine in regards to him.

Look: I have no problem with faith. I think faith is a good thing. I would even go so far as to say that it is often good to use faith to deal with more concrete, factual, material matters, such as when ministering to the sick. That said, I *do* have a problem when people insist that faith trumps everything else. It does not. Faith exists in a realm which is connected to but quite separate from most of what we do in life.

My big question to you is: What is at stake in your insistence that matters of faith are "real" in the same sense as the air you breathe, or the car you drive to work, or the eggs you ate for breakfast? Why do these things (for you) need to be equivalent in terms of their material reality?

I like what you say here. Its an excellent question. In regards to the first part, Our example in "how to be" is Jesus Christ. In regards to him, and in those who we look back on and consider truly faithful, what role did faith play in their life? Was it seperate, or ingrained in their life? The object of faith is to have it grow and become strong in you. Faith is intended to grow to a sure knowledge. (Alma 32) And as witnessed by many in the past, including myself, it can and does.

In answer to your big question: Why would you not want to know whether or not Christ is real? I would think that you would consider this important on your own. A sure knowledge of the gospel gives a person perspective on life, you know your place in the grand scheme of things, you know how to view the events around you and are sure of your place before God. You know who God is, and your relationship to him. Are these things unimportant? I think they are very important. That is why i insist that others learn who the Holy Ghost is and why he is important. Because it is through the Holy Ghost that we learn all of these things, and it is through the Holy Ghost that we are sanctified and are able to , in the end, stand before God. A witness of the Spirit is a very real thing, Like Peter, you make contact with God and gain a sure foundation, like a rock. Peters experience is an example of what we can all know and enjoy, who Christ is, and it is not based on the opinion of another, we know what God has to say on the matter. Your faith only grows when you test it. Abraham knew alot more about himself and God when he came back down the mountain with Isacc after having his faith tested. The same goes for us.

Faith comes by hearing the word of God through the testimony of the servants of God. A witness comes after a trial of our faith.

Gaz

[_Fortigurn]

All of your remarks, Gaz, force you to sweep unpleasant facts under the rug. Look how many times you are using words that have a spiritual connotations, words such as "Spirit," or "testimony," or "witnesses." This is a fundamentally spiritual statement, not a factual or logical statement.

For an example of this, lets look at a well known example. Matthew 16:13-17. Christ asks the disciples who the people say he is, and they give a few answers in regards to the rumors floating around. Then he asks them, who do you think I am? A heavy question, And Peter answered and said, you are the Son of God. And how did Peter know this? He had prayed to the Father and received a witness of the Spirit. That means that by the Spirit he knew a fact. And it is the same way with me. I put Moronis promise to the test, and now I know for a fact what is true regarding Jesus Christ. There are many Christs presented in the world, it is our responsibility to find the correct doctrine in regards to him.

It does not say that Peter 'had prayed to the Father and received a witness of the Spirit'. What it says is that God had revealed it to Peter. We are not given any details whatever on how this took place.

[_Gazelam]

If Joseph Smith was immoral, the Lord would have rejected him and the Spirit left him. Seeing as he lived his life in crecendo, the allegation and testimony of witnesses shown the accusation false.

Substantiate this please. Because there are many who feel that the Spirit did leave Joseph, and that he produced nothing of value once the Book of Mormon was finished.

Kirtland Temple

Nauvoo

Nauvoo Temple

Thousands baptised

King Follett Discource

Temple endowments

Pearl of Great Price

Doctrine and Covenants

Here is one example I will share, this occured while Joseph was in Washington D.C. seeking help from the President against the outages in Missouri. Parley P. Pratt wrote:

While visiting with brother Joseph in Philadelphia, a very large church was opened for him to preach in, and about three thousand people assembled to hear him. Brother Rigdon spoke first, and dwelt on the Gospel, illustrating his doctrine by the Bible. When he was through,
Brother Joseph arose like a lion about to roar; and being full of the Holy Ghost, spoke in great power, bearing testimony of the visions he had seen, the ministering of angels which he had enjoyed; and how he had found the plates of the Book of Mormon, and translated them by the gift and power of God. He commenced by saying, "If nobody else had the courage to testify of so glorious a message from Heaven, and of the finding of so glorious a record, he felt to do it, in justice to the people, and leave the event with God." The entire congregation was astounded; electrified, as it were, and overwhelmed with the sense of the truth and power by which he spoke, and the wonders which he related. A lasting impression was made; many souls were gathered into the fold. And I bear witness, that he, by his faithful and powerful testimony, cleared his garments of their blood.

Multitudes were baptised in Phillidelphia and in the regions around. While at the same time branchs were springing up in Pennsylvania, in Jersey, and in all directions.


That Joseph did nothing after the Book of Mormon is a completely ridiculous statement.

[_Gazelam]

Please share with us how God reveals truths to us.