Ensign article contradicts FARMS propoganda on MASONS

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_Gazelam
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Post by _Gazelam »

The Masons carried pieces of the true priesthood through the years the same as Catholics carried pieces of a true belief in Christ. Remember the fundamental principals of Mormonism? There is portions of truth found everywhere? Even the people that believed in Alchemy had portions of the truth, although they took the concept of turning base material into gold to odd places.

There is a really interesting article on all of this here:

http://www.gnosis.org/jskabb1.htm
We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light. - Plato
_Mephitus
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Post by _Mephitus »

Coggins7 wrote:
Simple Gaz. Once your out and you realize all the crap. Its a pretty good laugh to read one. I've now gotten to the point where i can listen to a talk by GBH and have a good laugh at all the obsurdities.


I'll point this out a second time: this is coming from an individual who seriously worships, or claims to seriously worship, ancient Norse dieties like Thor, Wotan, and Freya as if they, well, actually existed. He then paints the LDS church and its theology and philosohpy of life as banal tripe.

A little more circumspection might be in order, one suspects.


heh, if i was such a serious worshiper i would be citing work from it. As it is, i try to keep that seperate from my discussions here unless its an important area. If i do bring up comparisons of the 2, feel free to heckle, untill then keep on subject and away from the personal attacks. kay?
One nice thing is, ze game of love is never called on account of darkness - Pepe Le Pew
_Yoda

Post by _Yoda »

Gazelam wrote:The Masons carried pieces of the true priesthood through the years the same as Catholics carried pieces of a true belief in Christ. Remember the fundamental principals of Mormonism? There is portions of truth found everywhere? Even the people that believed in Alchemy had portions of the truth, although they took the concept of turning base material into gold to odd places.

There is a really interesting article on all of this here:

http://www.gnosis.org/jskabb1.htm


So was it coincidence that Joseph Smith became a Mason before the temple ceremony was revealed?

I'm not asking this simply to play devil's advocate. I'm genuinely interested in your thoughts on this.

It just seems to me that the similarities between the truth and the similarities between the Masonic rituals would be more credible if Joseph Smith wasn't affiliated with the Masonic Lodge.

Of course, I suppose that critics could still claim that Joseph had obtained the Masonic ceremony from someone else who was a member of the lodge...but the Masons have a very strict vow of secrecy regarding revealing their rituals to outsiders as well.
_Jason Bourne
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Post by _Jason Bourne »

Nevo wrote:Thanks for the warm welcome, guys. And by all means keep up the fulsome praise! :)

Anyway, returning to the subject of this thread, I think it is overstating the case to claim a "strong if not complete" Masonic influence on the endowment. As Glen Leonard points out in his history of Nauvoo, "the nineteenth-century makeup, teachings, and objectives of Freemasonry differed substantially from the Latter-day Saint endowment. Beyond a few actions and words, which the two groups interpreted differently, resemblances were few . . . . As a fraternal society, Freemasonry looked to earthbound personal improvements and mutual pledges to others and promotions to ranks determined by grading and voting by fellow Masons" (Glen M. Leonard, Nauvoo: A Place of Peace, a People of Promise [Salt Lake City: Deseret Book; Provo, UT: Brigham Young University Press, 2002], 315-16). This is rather different than what we find in the endowment.

Richard Bushman likewise finds only superficial similarities between Masonry and the endowment:

The Masonic elements that appeared in the temple endowment were embedded in a distinctive context--the Creation instead of the Temple of Solomon, exaltation rather than fraternity, God and Christ, not the Worshipful Master. Temple covenants bound people to God rather than to each other. At the end, the participants entered symbolically into the presence of God. Endowment, Joseph's name for the temple ceremony, connected it to promises made long before his encounter with Freemasonry. . . .

On the surface, the temple resembles the cloistered, brotherly world of the lodges. But the spiritual core of the Nauvoo endowment was not male bonding. By 1843 women were sitting in the ordinance rooms and passing through the rituals. Adam and Eve, a male-female pair, were the representative figures rather than the Masonic hero Hiram Abiff. The aim of the endowment was not male fraternity but the exaltation of husbands and wives.

-- Richard Lyman Bushman, Joseph Smith: Rough Stone Rolling (New York: Knopf, 2005), 450-51.

That said, there are some interesting connections between Freemasonry and Mormonism in general. Nick Literski lists some of them here.



Nevo,

Have you read the book

The Mysteries of Godliness
A History of Mormon Temple Worship
DAVID JOHN BUERGER

See: http://www.signaturebooks.com/mysteries.htm


If yes what is your take?
_Jason Bourne
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Post by _Jason Bourne »

Gazelam wrote:The Masons carried pieces of the true priesthood through the years the same as Catholics carried pieces of a true belief in Christ. Remember the fundamental principals of Mormonism? There is portions of truth found everywhere? Even the people that believed in Alchemy had portions of the truth, although they took the concept of turning base material into gold to odd places.

There is a really interesting article on all of this here:

http://www.gnosis.org/jskabb1.htm


I have read that Masonry and its rituals really had their start in the 17th or 18th century in England and that their ceremonies do not tie back to Solomon's temple at all.
_Who Knows
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Post by _Who Knows »

skippy the dead wrote:Maybe this is a naïve question, since I haven't yet had the chance to read many articles/books comparing Masonic rituals with the endowment rituals, but how would a church-sanctioned publication be able to really discuss similarities or differences without going into detail about the endowment rites (which would seem to be verboten)?


And this is why the church is in such a 'great' position here. They can go on and on all day about how the ceremonies are different, and yet the same (since you know, masonry has it's roots in the ancient temple ceremony - yeah right), but you can't bring up specifics, because they're bound to not talk about them.

Which brings up the 2 angles that apologists usually take - which seem to me to be contradictory:

1 - Masonry comes directly from the ancient temple ceremony - this is why there are similarities. This is why Joseph Smith joined the masons - to learn specifics of the temple ceremony.
2 - There are only minor similarities - "Beyond a few actions and words, which the two groups interpreted differently, resemblances were few" - from a post earlier in the thread.

And then you have to wonder why some of the 'masonic similarities' have now been taken out of the temple ceremony (penalties, 5 points of fellowship).

It just doesn't add up...
WK: "Joseph Smith asserted that the Book of Mormon peoples were the original inhabitants of the americas"
Will Schryver: "No, he didn’t." 3/19/08
Still waiting for Will to back this up...
_Nevo
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Post by _Nevo »

Jason Bourne wrote:Nevo,

Have you read the book

The Mysteries of Godliness
A History of Mormon Temple Worship
DAVID JOHN BUERGER

See: http://www.signaturebooks.com/mysteries.htm


If yes what is your take?

I've only browsed the book, but I did read the Dialogue article on which it was based ("The Development of the Mormon Temple Endowment Ceremony," Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought 20 [Winter 1987], 33-76) and found it fascinating.

I agree with his conclusion that "the temple ceremony cannot be explained as wholesale borrowing [from Masonry], neither can it be dismissed as completely unrelated" (David John Buerger, The Mysteries of Godliness: A History of Mormon Temple Worship [San Francisco: Smith Research Associates, 1994], 56).
_Polygamy Porter
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Post by _Polygamy Porter »

Who Knows wrote:
skippy the dead wrote:Maybe this is a naïve question, since I haven't yet had the chance to read many articles/books comparing Masonic rituals with the endowment rituals, but how would a church-sanctioned publication be able to really discuss similarities or differences without going into detail about the endowment rites (which would seem to be verboten)?


And this is why the church is in such a 'great' position here. They can go on and on all day about how the ceremonies are different, and yet the same (since you know, masonry has it's roots in the ancient temple ceremony - yeah right), but you can't bring up specifics, because they're bound to not talk about them.

Which brings up the 2 angles that apologists usually take - which seem to me to be contradictory:

1 - Masonry comes directly from the ancient temple ceremony - this is why there are similarities. This is why Joseph Smith joined the masons - to learn specifics of the temple ceremony.
2 - There are only minor similarities - "Beyond a few actions and words, which the two groups interpreted differently, resemblances were few" - from a post earlier in the thread.

And then you have to wonder why some of the 'masonic similarities' have now been taken out of the temple ceremony (penalties, 5 points of fellowship).

It just doesn't add up...
Normal people(a.k.a. "Gentiles") immediately see the stark similarities between masons and Mormon temple ceremonies.

Then I tell em why they nixed the five points of fellowship hug at the big garment curtain, err veil...

Too many young brides complained about a SIXTH point in those hugs! Yep, the old men were packin wood when they did the horny bear hug with the young brides... then I kid and tell them that is perhaps what the lower slit in the factory second gaint jesus jammie bedsheet, err veil was for!

by the way, when discussing the temple, please use my new name.... Boaz

That will do.
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