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 Post subject: how mopologists explain the Book of Abraham:
PostPosted: Tue Jul 09, 2019 11:44 pm 
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I've often wondered how LDS reconcile certain facts and information, and yet still believe, and the commenter kiwi has given some interesting details:

Unconvinced wrote:
The Rosetta Stone. It’s conflicting physical evidence that believers disregard that shows Joseph Smith wasn’t able to decipher or translate Egyptian hieroglyphic script at all.

Kiwi, to Unconvinced, wrote:
I doubt that I know less about the Rosetta Stone than you do. For it to be “conflicting physical evidence,” we would need to have established the following:

1. The Book of Abraham would have to be offered to the Church as exactly a conventional translation.

2. The translation would have to be of some known Egyptian source - such as Joseph Smith Papyri I, XI and X.

3. It would then have to have been proven not to be.

Of those points, point 1 is flatly false.
Flatly. False.

Point 2 is and remains significantly controversial. All evidence in its favour is equivocal.

Therefore, point 3 - which is the only point that falls within the purview of a trained Egyptologist, such as Dr Robert Ritner - is moot.

Just one example.

Of how badly you handle questions of evidence? I don’t doubt it.

I don't think kiwi is quite as conversant in matters of evidence as he supposes himself to be. :rolleyes:

The book of Abraham WAS offered up as an exact Egyptian translation, right up until the point when it was identified as NOT an Egyptian translation. That's when the alternate theories started.


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 Post subject: Re: how mopologists explain the Book of Abraham:
PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2019 2:30 am 
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Gaslighting at its finest.

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 Post subject: Re: how mopologists explain the Book of Abraham:
PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2019 3:56 am 
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On the one hand there's gaslighting, but to change one's story under the pressure of adverse evidence is not a bad thing in itself. That's what we're supposed to do, after all: change our minds when the evidence mounts too high to maintain our old theory. So if Mormons used to think that the Book of Abraham was a straightforward translation of those particular papyri, and then changed their tune when it became clear that it wasn't ... well, good for them, no? They're facing the truth, at least partly.

I do see two problems. One is that Mormons may refuse to admit that there was ever any belief in straightforward translation, either in the history of their church, or in their personal history of belief, or in the spectrum of current beliefs among their fellow Mormons. That's gaslighting.

But someone could admit, "We used to believe that, I used to believe that, some of us still believe that—but it's wrong." And then they could further admit, "We also used to believe that it was important to believe the papyri were translated. We were wrong about that, too. Actually the precise relationship between the Book of Abraham and any original manuscript is an unimportant detail." In that case I think there's no gaslighting. It may be maddening to see the apologist dodging the critical bullet, but I think they can do it.

If they do then I think they still face the second problem. The accuracy of the Book of Abraham as a translation may have been an unimportant detail in Mormon belief but I think it was a significant piece of support for Mormon belief. It made Smith's claim to be a prophet concrete, by giving it definite meaning in relation to physical things like two pages of text, ancient papyrus and English translation, so that "Smith was a prophet" wasn't just a grammatical convention of the Mormon mental language. Once one kicks away that support, the whole Mormon structure might not collapse, but it floats a little higher into the clouds.

Smith was a prophet ... because he wrote these English texts ... which count as revelations ... because Smith was a prophet. With one more link to concrete reality severed the whole structure becomes more of a closed loop of pure theory. While it may be harder to disprove such a loop, since it only has to be internally consistent, still there has been a sort of devaluation of the currency that will inevitably have effects on purchasing power. Why does anyone even care about the Book of Abraham? Is it full of spiritual truth profound enough to hallow even fraud? Or does its content only glow in the reflected light of its miraculous production by revelation, like banalities that turn into memes when celebrities say them? The less emphasis Mormons can put on the miraculous production of the Book of Abraham, the more weight its content alone has to carry. Is it up to that?

For Mormon apologists to give up the Book of Abraham as a straightforward translation is avoiding surrender by a strategic withdrawal. It's not a collapse but it is a retreat and in the long run it may turn out to have been a decisive one.


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 Post subject: Re: how mopologists explain the Book of Abraham:
PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2019 5:58 am 
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You'll notice that today's apologists don't quote Joseph Smith and the eyewitnesses who recorded what the prophet claimed. You'll notice that today's apologists ignore the historical claims and statements in an unauthorized attempt to replace the nature of translation and to discredit what Smith and his followers actually said. Today's apologists wouldn't have survived one day in the presence of Smith because he'd excommunicate all of them for denying his revelation and spreading lies.

Mormon apologists are liars. All of them!

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 Post subject: Re: how mopologists explain the Book of Abraham:
PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2019 2:28 pm 
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Physics Guy wrote:
For Mormon apologists to give up the Book of Abraham as a straightforward translation is avoiding surrender by a strategic withdrawal. It's not a collapse but it is a retreat and in the long run it may turn out to have been a decisive one.

Apologists only represent themselves and can believe what ever they like, but that facts support Joseph clearly claiming a traditional translation or that the papyri and gold plates contain the Abraham and Book of Mormon story. It's so clear that many apologists maintain the papyri Joseph had did contain the Abraham story. As long as the facts are out there that members can find, the church will continue to lose TBM's.

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 Post subject: Re: how mopologists explain the Book of Abraham:
PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2019 6:37 am 
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Themis wrote:
It's so clear that many apologists maintain the papyri Joseph had did contain the Abraham story. As long as the facts are out there that members can find, the church will continue to lose TBM's.


The apologists who claim that Smith did in fact have a roll with the story of Abraham on it in true form are hard pressed to find a king's name in the writing of Facsimile No. 3. In either case, it's sheer fantasy. You know how I love to shove it down their throats. It's a slam dunk. It makes me smile while they frown. I know you guys are pretty sick of me bringing this up constantly year after year but believe me it's gaining traction and Mormon scholars are worried about how to handle this problem.

Just keep saying: "There is no king's name in Facsimile No. 3".

By doing so we contradict Joseph Smith and stymie the apologists. It must be very frustrating for them. And now they have to come to some kind of logical explanation on what to do with the poor jackal who is missing his snout. It does seem there are a lot of things missing when it comes to what Smith claimed.

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 Post subject: Re: how mopologists explain the Book of Abraham:
PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2019 6:44 am 
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Themis wrote:
Apologists only represent themselves and can believe what ever they like, but that facts support Joseph clearly claiming a traditional translation or that the papyri and gold plates contain the Abraham and Book of Mormon story.


Right, the apologists represent themselves and wont not quote what Joseph Smith said because he tells a different story which they don't want to hear. The apologists might as well wrap duct tape around Joseph's mouth and tell him to hush.

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 Post subject: Re: how mopologists explain the Book of Abraham:
PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2019 7:04 am 
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Lemmie wrote:
The book of Abraham WAS offered up as an exact Egyptian translation, right up until the point when it was identified as NOT an Egyptian translation. That's when the alternate theories started.


The differences between the 1800's Mormon church and the 2000's Mormon church are so staggering that they can't possibly be considered the same church. Too many changes. Too many differences. Too much contradiction between them. Mormonism is a housed divided -- a religion evolved in conflict which cannot be reconciled.

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 Post subject: Re: how mopologists explain the Book of Abraham:
PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2019 8:06 pm 
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Mormons have never agreed on any common definition of the word "translated".*


* At least as far as translated is translated correctly.

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 Post subject: Re: how mopologists explain the Book of Abraham:
PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2019 6:36 am 
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moksha wrote:
Mormons have never agreed on any common definition of the word "translated".*


* At least as far as translated is translated correctly.


I think it's fair to say that those who associated with Joseph Smith and church members back in Nauvoo had the general idea that Joseph Smith translated the Egyptian hieroglyphics from the very papyrus in hand and reproduced the story of Abraham.

What Mormons say or come up with today doesn't matter. They can't speak for Joseph Smith or Oliver Cowdery. We take our cues from the them not dishonest apologists who love to deny reality and spin truth. We listen to Joseph Smith and take what he said at face value. And with that said, we know Smith lied. We also know the apologists today are liars, all of them.

So, what the apologists say doesn't matter. Screw them.

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 Post subject: Re: how mopologists explain the Book of Abraham:
PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2019 9:34 am 
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The Kirtland Egyptian Papers nail the Book of Abraham as a man-made fabrication. The apologists attempt to say that the KEP came after the Book of Abraham was already produced. That is contrary to entries in History of the Church for the second half of 1835. The KEP was being worked on before the end of July 1835, and it wasn't until the end of September 1835 that Abraham's astronomy was 'revealed' to Joseph Smith.

The KEP does two things. It demonstrates the the papyrus found in 1967 is THE one Joseph Smith and scribes supposedly translated into being the Book of Abraham (even though as enabled by the Rosetta Stone, Egyptologists agree that there is nothing on the papyrus that matches up with the Book of Abraham story). The KEP proves it was a linguistic translation that Joseph Smith and scribes were attempting, taking characters in one language and creating corresponding text in English. That is, the KEP proves the Joseph Smith was trying to pass off the Book of Abraham as a translation as that term was then and now is ordinarily used and understood, just as Joseph entitled and introduced it:

Quote:
THE BOOK OF ABRAHAM
TRANSLATED FROM THE PAPYRUS, BY JOSEPH SMITH

A Translation of some ancient Records that have fallen into our hands from the catacombs of Egypt. The writings of Abraham while he was in Egypt, called the Book of Abraham, written by his own hand, upon papyrus.


The problems with the Book of Abraham being what Joseph Smith claimed are legion. The problem posed by the KEP, as explained above, is just one--one that alone dooms Joseph Smith's claims for what the Book of Abraham is and its source.

The Book of Abraham is for those that take an honest look at it, the rabbit hole down which one starts to find all the wondrous realities.

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 Post subject: Re: how mopologists explain the Book of Abraham:
PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2019 9:50 am 
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Holy Ghost wrote:
The Kirtland Egyptian Papers nail the Book of Abraham as a man-made fabrication.


Yes, it's man-made. Even Hugh Nibley admits it and tried to pin the blame on the "men of Kirtland" in their vain attempt to figure out how it was translated -- the work being purely speculative and exploratory.

It was the "men of Kirtland", indeed, the KEP was man-made as was the entire fabrication of the Book of Abraham.

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 Post subject: Re: how mopologists explain the Book of Abraham:
PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2019 10:02 am 
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Holy Ghost wrote:
The KEP proves it was a linguistic translation that Joseph Smith and scribes were attempting, taking characters in one language and creating corresponding text in English.


It's the same thing with Facsimile No. 3. Nobody can deny it. It's not a matter of "missing papyrus" in order to appease the apologists and thwart the critics. We have absolute evidence with the Facsimile No. 3 Explanations which point directly to the Egyptian hieroglyphic characters in the registers.

It's a slam dunk! Joseph Smith made it all up. He couldn't translate Egyptian. He couldn't read Egyptian. He was lying.

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 Post subject: Re: how mopologists explain the Book of Abraham:
PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2019 11:00 am 
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Lemmie wrote:
The book of Abraham WAS offered up as an exact Egyptian translation, right up until the point when it was identified as NOT an Egyptian translation. That's when the alternate theories started.

When reality is insufficient, it is time for apologetics.

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 Post subject: Re: how mopologists explain the Book of Abraham:
PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2019 11:17 am 
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Today the Church officially portrays the Book Of Abraham thusly...

Quote:
The Book of Abraham
Translated from the Papyrus, by Joseph Smith

A Translation of some ancient Records that have fallen into our hands from the catacombs of Egypt. The writings of Abraham while he was in Egypt, called the Book of Abraham, written by his own hand, upon papyrus.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... 1?lang=eng

Kiwi57 is a liar.

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 Post subject: Re: how mopologists explain the Book of Abraham:
PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2019 12:21 pm 
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Lemmie wrote:
The book of Abraham WAS offered up as an exact Egyptian translation


Book of Abraham wrote:
TRANSLATED FROM THE PAPYRUS
A Translation of some ancient Records


TRANSLATED FROM THE PAPYRUS
A Translation of some ancient Records

1 + 1 = 2

Stupid ____ Mormons

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 Post subject: Re: how mopologists explain the Book of Abraham:
PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2019 12:31 pm 
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Book of Abraham wrote:
TRANSLATED FROM THE PAPYRUS


Book of Mormon:
TRANSLATED FROM THE GOLDEN PLATES

It's the very same thing.

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 Post subject: Re: how mopologists explain the Book of Abraham:
PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2019 4:22 pm 
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Shulem wrote:
Even Hugh Nibley admits it and tried to pin the blame on the "men of Kirtland" in their vain attempt to figure out how it was translated -- the work being purely speculative and exploratory.

That's like putting the lipstick on the pig's anus. Chris Smith's piece on the KEP being the drafting for Abraham 1:1-3 shoots to ____ this notion. Oh, yea, unless the started with the 5th degree expansions (verbiage from Abraham 1:1-3) and then left room for and worked backwords to lesser and lesser expansions to then just the character. "Yea, that's the ticket." :rolleyes:

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 Post subject: Re: how mopologists explain the Book of Abraham:
PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2019 4:26 pm 
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Holding up the Book of Abraham to a Mormon apologist or GA has an effect very similar to holding up a cross and flicking holy water on a vampire, or dumping a pail of water on the wicked witch of the west--"I'm melting, melting."

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 Post subject: Re: how mopologists explain the Book of Abraham:
PostPosted: Sat Jul 13, 2019 4:13 pm 
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Lemmie wrote:
I've often wondered how LDS reconcile certain facts and information, and yet still believe, and the commenter kiwi has given some interesting details:

Unconvinced wrote:
The Rosetta Stone. It’s conflicting physical evidence that believers disregard that shows Joseph Smith wasn’t able to decipher or translate Egyptian hieroglyphic script at all.

Kiwi, to Unconvinced, wrote:
I doubt that I know less about the Rosetta Stone than you do. For it to be “conflicting physical evidence,” we would need to have established the following:

1. The Book of Abraham would have to be offered to the Church as exactly a conventional translation.

2. The translation would have to be of some known Egyptian source - such as Joseph Smith Papyri I, XI and X.

3. It would then have to have been proven not to be.

Of those points, point 1 is flatly false.
Flatly. False.

Point 2 is and remains significantly controversial. All evidence in its favour is equivocal.

Therefore, point 3 - which is the only point that falls within the purview of a trained Egyptologist, such as Dr Robert Ritner - is moot.

Just one example.

Of how badly you handle questions of evidence? I don’t doubt it.

I don't think kiwi is quite as conversant in matters of evidence as he supposes himself to be. :rolleyes:

The book of Abraham WAS offered up as an exact Egyptian translation, right up until the point when it was identified as NOT an Egyptian translation. That's when the alternate theories started.

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 Post subject: Re: how mopologists explain the Book of Abraham:
PostPosted: Sun Jul 14, 2019 9:27 am 
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Mormonicious wrote:
Image


Stupid ____ Mormons follow Horny Holy Joe and his Book of Abraham TRANSLATION.

Brainwashed Mormons will believe anything Horny Joe says!

:lol:

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