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 Post subject: Re: Smoot's conclusion to his review of the AEBOM
PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2019 12:12 pm 
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From the thread I quoted above, where "complexity" was again brought up, Darth J weighed in with a classic:
Quote:
Darth J wrote:
In summary, you on your own did not find any narrative complexity (whatever that means!) in the keystone of your religion. You just read a Mormon self-help book or two in which someone else told you what to think.

How about if we frame it this way: when Teryl Givens, peace be upon him, told you there was narrative complexity in the Book of Mormon, how were you able to evaluate whether that is true?

DRACULA: "I am the prince of darkness!"

VAN HELSING: "Back, foul creature! Behold this book I read by a Christian apologist about the symbolism of the cross! Have you read it? Ex umbris in lucem, ____!"

DRACULA: "Alas! Reference to an apologist work about the power of Christian symbolism is one of my weakenesses!"

VAN HELSING: "Now you get lost, or I'll bring out a Wikipedia entry about garlic!"


viewtopic.php?p=1006590#p1006590


:lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Smoot's conclusion to his review of the AEBOM
PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2019 12:21 pm 
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But.... but.... multiple apologists sold me books that told me the Book of Mormon is complex.....






SO WHAT?!

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 Post subject: Re: Smoot's conclusion to his review of the AEBOM
PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2019 8:25 pm 
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mentalgymnast wrote:
Lemmie wrote:
...who knows how many other threads re 'complexity' and again now?


I appreciate your cut and pastes of honor's contributions/thoughts in regards to Hardy's book.

Nonetheless, have you read it? Do you disagree personally with some of his arguments in regards to BofM complexity and cohesiveness of narrative? If so, what are your own thoughts?

Are Bushman and Barlow simply 'paid hacks' and their opinions are to be swept aside because of your perceived presuppositions as to their mental state and/or biases?

Regards,
MG


You know, I'd bet you just about anything you'd be willing to wager that Lemmie could invent a better argument for Book of Mormon complexity than you could articulate from your take away from Hardy. Seriously. What would you be willing to wager?

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 Post subject: Re: Smoot's conclusion to his review of the AEBOM
PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2019 8:39 pm 
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Lemmie wrote:
...who knows how many other threads re 'complexity' and again now?


mentalgymnast wrote:
I appreciate your cut and pastes of honor's contributions/thoughts in regards to Hardy's book.

Nonetheless, have you read it? Do you disagree personally with some of his arguments in regards to BofM complexity and cohesiveness of narrative? If so, what are your own thoughts?

Are Bushman and Barlow simply 'paid hacks' and their opinions are to be swept aside because of your perceived presuppositions as to their mental state and/or biases?


honor wrote:
You know, I'd bet you just about anything you'd be willing to wager that Lemmie could invent a better argument for Book of Mormon complexity than you could articulate from your take away from Hardy. Seriously. What would you be willing to wager?


I don't doubt that she could. I am concerned though. I'm not sure if she's actually read it. If she has, I'm interested in her views rather than her cut and pastes of others. This is typically her modus operandi.

By the way, I've enjoyed reading your contributions along with others over at Interpreter...Joseph the World's Greatest Guesser.

Interesting stuff.

I'm more interested in the Stylometry studies done by various folks than I am in the Dale's work. But that's just me. Math and statistics was not and is not my forte. Way above my pay grade. :wink:

Regards,
MG


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 Post subject: Re: Smoot's conclusion to his review of the AEBOM
PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2019 8:52 pm 
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Someone here is such a hypocrite because that someone on more than one occasion claimed that I was biased and questioned my mental state and so "swept aside" my historical conclusions. I find this so hilarious and yes, as always disingenuous. The cut and paste king trying to pontificate about cutting and pasting! :lol: The one who never reads ANYTHING deigning to lecture Lemmie! :lol:

____ hilarious.

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 Post subject: Re: Smoot's conclusion to his review of the AEBOM
PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2019 8:54 pm 
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mentalgymnast wrote:
I am concerned though. I'm not sure if she's actually read it. If she has, I'm interested in her views rather than her cut and pastes of others. This is typically her modus operandi.


Professor Lemmie's modus operandi is to cut and paste? Seriously MG?

Of all the whacked out and insane things you've said over the years, this takes the cake. You do realize how crazy your comment is, I hope? Are you high?



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 Post subject: Re: Smoot's conclusion to his review of the AEBOM
PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2019 9:15 pm 
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Everybody Wang Chung wrote:
Professor Lemmie's modus operandi is to cut and paste?


Yep. Not only the posts of others, but also mine. That is, of course, after she's done a hatchet job and cut things up and put them back together again in such a way as to distort the original meaning/intent of what I've said in a greater context. But I've admitted before that she's darn good at what she does. Unfortunately I think it is only the person being subjected to this malignment that can see through it. Others, especially if they don't read posts carefully within the greater context and/or volume of posts, are going to fall prey to this shenanigans.

And it's such a waste of time to even deal with it. It's the gift that never stops giving. :lol:

Regards,
MG


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 Post subject: Re: Smoot's conclusion to his review of the AEBOM
PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2019 9:39 pm 
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Everybody Wang Chung wrote:
mentalgymnast wrote:
I am concerned though. I'm not sure if she's actually read it. If she has, I'm interested in her views rather than her cut and pastes of others. This is typically her modus operandi.


Professor Lemmie's modus operandi is to cut and paste? Seriously MG?

Of all the whacked out and insane things you've said over the years, this takes the cake. You do realize how crazy your comment is, I hope? Are you high?



Image

:lol:
Did mentalgymnast, the retired science teacher, just say
"math and science" are "way above [his] pay grade"????


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 Post subject: Re: Smoot's conclusion to his review of the AEBOM
PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2019 9:50 pm 
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mentalgymnast wrote:
I don't doubt that she could. I am concerned though. I'm not sure if she's actually read it. If she has, I'm interested in her views rather than her cut and pastes of others. This is typically her modus operandi.

Did you read Lemmie's post comparing the Dales' paper to a Vegas con job? That was hardly copy-pasta. It's the talents in those types of posts that make me quite confident Lemmie would shake better arguments for Book of Mormon complexity our of their sleeve than would come from merely attempting to summarize what you found insightful in Hardy.

Speaking of Hardy, and the Book of Mormon, I found myself missing a certain dapper book club after stumbling on this old thread:

http://www.mormondiscussions.com/phpBB3 ... 67#p657267

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Last edited by honorentheos on Tue Jun 11, 2019 9:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Smoot's conclusion to his review of the AEBOM
PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2019 9:50 pm 
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English too, appears to be above his pay grade... :redface: How does one slander an anonymous troll by the way?

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 Post subject: Re: Smoot's conclusion to his review of the AEBOM
PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 11:47 am 
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Smoot is stunned at the pejorative language heartlanders offer, in response to his pejorative language.

Smoot wrote:
AEBOM editor Jonathan Neville has routinely employed disparaging and pejorative language when criticizing proponents of a Mesoamerican setting for the Book of Mormon. For example, Neville coined the term “M2C” (“Mesoamerica-Two-Cumorah”) as an offhand pejorative label to describe those who don’t accept his particular theories about Book of Mormon geography (and especially the location of the ancient Hill Cumorah). Make no mistake about it: “M2C” is, in its most fundamental meaning, intended to be a derogatory epithet.

https://interpreterfoundation.org/blog- ... on-part-6/


OMG. "M2C"???? How. Dare. They.

(This is the guy who posted this, right?

Quote:
Stephen Smoot:

Well kids it's been fun, but I have big boy stuff to do tomorrow, like drive six hours to an academic conference.

I'm very pleased that my trolling has prompted this conversation. If nothing else it has proven to me why I hope to God that I never become an ex-Mormon.

So long everyone' Just remember to clean up after your tapir bukake (which you still haven't proven to me that you don't engage in frequently).

('Academic conferences are these things where people who don't rot their brains on Bill Reel's podcasts go to do actual and engage in critical thinking)

https://imgur.com/FFGDfEM


I've never in my life heard of anything as disgusting as Smoot's reference above. That's a quality Mormon right there.)


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 Post subject: Re: Smoot's conclusion to his review of the AEBOM
PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 12:45 pm 
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I would like to see someone find me a book that follows a chronological timeline and describes groups of people within that timeline/narrative interacting with other characters/actors with Holden Caulfield as being central to the storyline, other than The Catcher in the Rye?

Checkmate, apostates.

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 Post subject: Re: Smoot's conclusion to his review of the AEBOM
PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 2:03 pm 
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Smoot has this to say about the Dales' paper in the Mormon Interpreter re: the overwhelming odds they calculated that the setting for the Book of Mormon is Mesoamerican:
Quote:
Well, if the Lord wanted us to know where it was, or where Zarahemla was, he’d have given us latitude and longitude, don’t you think? And why bother our heads trying to discover with archaeological certainty the geographical locations of the cities of the Book of Mormon like Zarahemla?”[3]
https://interpreterfoundation.org/blog- ... ostscript/

Oops, wait, no, I am getting that confused. Smoot was quoting Harold B. Lee in the above; clearly the rest of Lee's words suggest that the Dales are going a bit too far:
Quote:
Some say the Hill Cumorah was in southern Mexico (and someone pushed it down still farther) and not in western New York.


Um. This is getting confusing. Does Smoot agree that the Book of Mormon gold plates were found at the Hill Cumorah in New York? Or is he arguing the plates don't exist because the New York "Hill Cumorah" is only ceremonial in name, and not the real Hill Cumorah in Mesoamerica, where the plates were buried?

I agree with Dr. Steuss, we need a scorecard here.


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 Post subject: Re: Smoot's conclusion to his review of the AEBOM
PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 2:12 pm 
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Doctor Steuss wrote:
I would like to see someone find me a book that follows a chronological timeline and describes groups of people within that timeline/narrative interacting with other characters/actors with Holden Caulfield as being central to the storyline, other than The Catcher in the Rye?

Checkmate, apostates.

Salinger used Caufield in other writings, but by qualifying the criteria as needing to be book length you absolutely nailed the apologetic approach of appearing to set a broad standard that is, in reality, impossibly narrow. Not sure if that last detail of specifying "book" was intentional, but a sincere hat tip to you sir. Well played.

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 Post subject: Re: Smoot's conclusion to his review of the AEBOM
PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 2:29 pm 
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But


But



COMPLEXITY!!!!




COMPLEXITY!!!




Why won't anyone listen?

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 Post subject: Re: Smoot's conclusion to his review of the AEBOM
PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 2:36 pm 
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honorentheos wrote:
Salinger used Caufield in other writings, but by qualifying the criteria as needing to be book length you absolutely nailed the apologetic approach of appearing to set a broad standard that is, in reality, impossibly narrow. Not sure if that last detail of specifying "book" was intentional, but a sincere hat tip to you sir. Well played.

Unlike the Book of Mormon, if you find any complexity within my posts, it is more likely inadvertent (or from hasty ignorance) than from genius or the divine.

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 Post subject: Re: Smoot's conclusion to his review of the AEBOM
PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 2:50 pm 
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mentalgymnast wrote:

Name one book that tells a story of Christ as the main focus/character (who speaks within the narrative) that you would compare to the BofM.

I can think of the Bible.

Any others?

honor wrote:
The Lion, The Witch, and The Wardrobe is far superior to the Book of Mormon in theological scope, readability and originality but otherwise meets your standard.


I've read that series beginning to end. Loved reading C.S. Lewis.

I typically take the time to read and digest your posts, honorentheos, and usually come away viewing your perspective with some respect/acknowledgement. There are other posters that I would not compliment in that manner.

That being said, this response is indeed somewhat flimsy. You've read Hardy. You've read Brant Gardner. You've read Terryl Givens. You've looked at John Welch and his work on chiasmus. By the way, the story about how Bro. Welch discovered chiasmus in the Book of Mormon is a bit of a miracle in and of itself. Some folks aren't familiar with this story:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=elMgg19ekXI

You've read the Book of Mormon.

You know that there is something more to be said about the BofM's provenance than that of the Narnia series.

Regards,
MG


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 Post subject: Re: Smoot's conclusion to his review of the AEBOM
PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 2:57 pm 
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Quote:
You know that there is something more to be said about the BofM's provenance than that of the Narnia series.


Actually, there isn't. They are both imaginary stories about Jesus. But Lewis (hands down) wrote a far more interesting story and it wasn't ripped off from other people's ideas.

The Book of Mormon is 19th Century FICTION. It's been proven over and over again and anyone arguing that it isn't, is (to use a phrase bandied about here) is wasting their time.

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 Post subject: Re: Smoot's conclusion to his review of the AEBOM
PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 3:04 pm 
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mentalgymnast wrote:
You know that there is something more to be said about the BofM's provenance than that of the Narnia series.

Regards,
MG

More to be said, yes. But we're in polite company.

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 Post subject: Re: Smoot's conclusion to his review of the AEBOM
PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 3:08 pm 
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In all seriousness, MG, I once asked if you could share the scriptures or verses from the Book of Mormon that you feel would have lasting, broad impact in the way other ancient religious wisdom texts have messages that have found an audience beyond that of the narrow group of religious followers. Most people have heard lines from the Tao whether they recognize it or not, know a line or two attributed to Jesus, etc., etc. What content is in the Book of Mormon, specificly chapter and verse, that you believe could/should resonate with a more universal audience than just believing Mormons?

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 Post subject: Re: Smoot's conclusion to his review of the AEBOM
PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 3:14 pm 
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Smoot wrote:
Just remember to clean up after your tapir bukake

Ummm...there is one reason and one reason only to know that last word, and it isn't from hearing it in Sunday School.

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