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 Post subject: The Mopologists' War with the Heartlanders is Heating Up
PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2019 10:12 pm 
B.H. Roberts Chair of Mopologetic Studies
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In a provocative new post entitled "Some controversial topics," Sic et Non has announced a new level of warfare being directed at Rodney Meldrum ands fellow "Heartlanders." The Editor in Chief writes:

Quote:
I’m sorry to see contention among members of the Church — especially when that contention centers on what is, after all, an issue of at most secondary importance. I’ve been on the receiving end of “Heartlander” attacks, both public and private, some of them remarkably nasty and abusive, for quite some time.


What's he "sorry" about, you might ask? In fact, it's a recent blog posting from Stephen Smoot, who has seized upon a posting to the FIRM Foundation's Facebook page. Smoot takes issue with the fact that the "Mesoamerican model" has been described as "apostate."

So, to summarize: "Sic et Non" is "sorry" that S. Smoot is upset over the FIRM Foundation's labeling of their (the Mopologists') pet theory (the LGT) as "apostate." What is the response, then? See for yourself:

DCP / SeN wrote:
So, in that sense, I’m not displeased to see that certain members of the Church (I don’t know who they are; I don’t even have a hunch or a suspicion) have begun to respond to similar attacks. Here are some examples of such responses:


You really must check them out for yourself, but in short: the links are to a rather low-rent looking blog called "NevilleNevilleLand," and whose avowed purpose is as follows:

Peter, of NevilleNevilleLand wrote:
This is the first in (what I expect to be) a series of critical examinations of the arguments of Jonathan Neville.

Brother Neville is the prolific author of at least twelve books and over sixty blogs (!), most of which expound his theories on the the Book of Mormon.


Though Peter hastens to add, at the end of the entry, that:

Quote:
I wish to clarify that I hold no animosity toward Jonathan Neville; I merely wish to demonstrate that his one-note zeal for his theories has caused him to embrace ideas and conclusions that are not warranted by evidence and clear thinking.

—Peter


This is getting awfully murky, isn't it? We've got the presumably serious Dr. Peterson announcing that it "saddens" him when Latter-day Saints are adversarial towards one another, but, hey: he understands it because they (the Heartlanders) have been "nasty" towards him, so now he's glad to see people--including "Peter" (or, rather, someone pretending to be Peter Pan), the proprietor of "NevilleNevilleLand"--"have begun to respond to similar attacks." Huh? I see no signs on "NevilleNevilleLand" that Neville or any of the other heartlanders was "nasty" towards Peter. Peter himself insists that his blog of criticisms against Neville were spurred on by Neville's "one-note zeal." (Peterson provides five separate links to "NevilleNevilleLand." I cannot for the life of me figure out why they are zeroing in so aggressively on Neville...Any guesses?)

Anyways, it's worth remembering what set this whole thing off--i.e., Smoot was enraged that the FIRM Foundation would call the Mesoamerican model "apostate." Check out the way that "Sic et Non" wraps up this discussion:

Quote:
I certainly don’t accuse all “Heartlanders” of being abusive and personally insulting — although I disagree with their views on the geography of the Book of Mormon, I would never for a moment dispute the fact that many if not most of them are sincere believers and kind people — but I do genuinely worry about advocacy of the “Heartland” geographical model potentially turning into a kind of schismatic cult.


Ok, then--lesson learned. Next time, FIRM just needs to refer to the Mopologists as a "schismatic cult." Problem solved!

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 Post subject: Re: The Mopologists' War with the Heartlanders is Heating Up
PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2019 12:34 am 
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well now DCP can respond to the heartlanders with proof that the Book of Mormon is mesoamerican to the tune of 10^ 132 as a lower bound. that should settle that. LOL!

It's odd that he'd worry about them becoming a schism and cult, I assume that's just an insult as you suggest, as if they really did become a schism they would be ex'd and problem solved, it would be proven that the Heartlanders were the apostate ones all along.

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 Post subject: Re: The Mopologists' War with the Heartlanders is Heating Up
PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2019 12:49 am 
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Wow, talk about fire in the hole.

I want to address the bomb DCP dropped,
Quote:
...I do genuinely worry about advocacy of the “Heartland” geographical model potentially turning into a kind of schismatic cult.

Why is DCP attempting to claim that those believing in the Heartland model are potentially turning into a cult? We know that in the Mormon world this may mean an apostate group that can't be trusted. DCP could very much damage the lives of the TBMs that are working on the Heartland project by claiming those supporting the Heartland model are part of a schismatic cult.

What drives DCP to throw this bomb into a crowd of fellow believers?
Some speculate that the Heartland model is winning favor over any other Book of Mormon geography theory including the once prized Central American model.
Why is this an issue for DCP? There's many reasons, most notable, the loss of funding/income for DCP et al., the loss of authority for DCP et al. as now their research is questioned, and the potential for DCP et al. to be minimized.

What makes this even scarier for DCP is he is now at risk of experiencing friendly fire in the form of FAIR and similar other organizations turning their backs to DCP et al. (just like the Maxwell Institute did to DCP). IMHO, in this case, it's worse than the Maxwell Institute, because the orgs turning their back to DCP will be staffed by people he supported. This is all very scary. We will see a very vicious war over Mormon geography. We all know that DCP is ready for war, I don't know if the Heartland people can handle this type of war. Can you imagine the first hit piece authored by Gregory Smith and peer reviewed by DCP?

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 Post subject: Re: The Mopologists' War with the Heartlanders is Heating Up
PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2019 5:37 am 
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Gadianton wrote:
well now DCP can respond to the heartlanders with proof that the Book of Mormon is mesoamerican to the tune of 10^ 132 as a lower bound. that should settle that. LOL!

Dean Robbers,

You have no idea how much I would love to see such an assertion from DCP. As hard as it is to believe, I would put the chances of his eventually making this kind of claim - or at least citing the Dale & Dale 'Greatest Guesser' paper as evidence in support of the LGT - in the range of 0.2 to even. (Talk about your LOL!.)

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Last edited by DrW on Wed May 15, 2019 5:47 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: The Mopologists' War with the Heartlanders is Heating Up
PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2019 5:46 am 
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DrW wrote:
Gadianton wrote:
well now DCP can respond to the heartlanders with proof that the Book of Mormon is mesoamerican to the tune of 10^ 132 as a lower bound. that should settle that. LOL!

Dean Robbers,

You have no idea how much I would love to see such an assertion from DCP. As hard as it is to believe, I would put the chances of his eventually making such a claim - or at least citing the Dale & Dale 'Greatest Guesser' paper as evidence in support of the LGT - in the range of 0.2 to even. (Talk about your LOL!.)


:lol: :lol: :lol: Perrrrrrfect!

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 Post subject: Re: The Mopologists' War with the Heartlanders is Heating Up
PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2019 9:27 am 
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DrW wrote:
Gadianton wrote:
well now DCP can respond to the heartlanders with proof that the Book of Mormon is mesoamerican to the tune of 10^ 132 as a lower bound. that should settle that. LOL!

Dean Robbers,

You have no idea how much I would love to see such an assertion from DCP. As hard as it is to believe, I would put the chances of his eventually making this kind of claim - or at least citing the Dale & Dale 'Greatest Guesser' paper as evidence in support of the LGT - in the range of 0.2 to even. (Talk about your LOL!.)

I'm sure that in a day or two, or maybe even three, DCP will have something important to say about it. Even significant.

I'm sure he is worried that the Dale's 10^132 advocacy of the “Mesoamerican ” geographical model will potentially turn into a kind of schismatic, Bayesian cult.


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 Post subject: Re: The Mopologists' War with the Heartlanders is Heating Up
PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2019 10:21 am 
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Lemmie wrote:
I'm sure that in a day or two, or maybe even three, DCP will have something important to say about it. Even significant.

I'm sure he is worried that the Dale's 10^132 advocacy of the “Mesoamerican ” geographical model will potentially turn into a kind of schismatic, Bayesian cult.

Hey Lemmie,

Your faith in DCP is admirable.

Such a cult would be schismatic, all right.

Not sure it would be Bayesian.

(Perhaps pseudo-Bayesian.)

They could form a "10^132 Club". (Sort of like the Pat Robertson "700 Club", but with a much bigger number.)
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More later down in the Spirit Paradise Forum on the real world damage that pseudoscience true believers posting nonsense of the internet can do to science, engineering and society in general. (The Greatest Guesser paper is but one rather insignificant example.)

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 Post subject: Re: The Mopologists' War with the Heartlanders is Heating Up
PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2019 10:51 am 
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 Post subject: Re: The Mopologists' War with the Heartlanders is Heating Up
PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2019 11:34 am 
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DCP: If you're a believer and have a different viewpoint than mine on Book of Mormon geography then you're part of a schismatic cult.

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 Post subject: Re: The Mopologists' War with the Heartlanders is Heating Up
PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2019 1:16 pm 
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Physics Guy wrote:
All your Bayes are belong to us!

:lol: Awesome, PG.


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 Post subject: Re: The Mopologists' War with the Heartlanders is Heating Up
PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2019 10:18 pm 
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Quote:
I’m sorry to see contention among members of the Church — especially when that contention centers on what is, after all, an issue of at most secondary importance.


Interesting how as editor of the FARMS review and Interpreter, DCP has overseen the publication of dozens of Mesoamerican Limited Geography apologetic papers, but it's an issue of "at most secondary importance". He even writes apologetics for the LG apologetics!!


Quote:
Brother Neville is the prolific author of at least twelve books and over sixty blogs (!), most of which expound his theories on the the Book of Mormon.


The Heartland crowd are using a shock and awe-like approach to stake out their territory. Jonathan Neville publishes multiple blogs and books, Dean Sessions makes hundreds of dubious claims in his 800+(!) page Universal Model book, Wayne May publishes countless archaeological forgeries and frauds and Meldrum runs massive Heartland expos with 80+ speakers.

The tactic they are using is a form of Gish Galloping; where so many weak and dubious claims are made its virtually impossible to respond to them. Consequently, ordinary members, keen for positive evidence, think there has to be something in this Heartland model. Sorenson did exactly the same thing for 60 years with his parallelomania apologetics for the Maya in Mesoamerica.

Quote:
I wish to clarify that I hold no animosity toward Jonathan Neville; I merely wish to demonstrate that his one-note zeal for his theories has caused him to embrace ideas and conclusions that are not warranted by evidence and clear thinking.

—Peter


Jonathan Neville has shared the same warm sentiments before getting the knives out. He says he loves all the Meso apologists, then he rips their theory apart, pointing out how it conflicts with so many things the prophet Joseph Smith said.

This is what worries the Meso crowd the most. The Meso LG assumes Joseph Smith was merely an instrument to produce the Book of Mormon but didn't have a clue about where the events took place in the Americas. All those visits from an angel seared into his memory, except the bit about where the Lamanites were located.

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Last edited by Simon Southerton on Wed May 15, 2019 11:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: The Mopologists' War with the Heartlanders is Heating Up
PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2019 10:39 pm 
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The same javelin used to take down the Mormon Transhumanists can be used on those pesky Heartlanders.

In the end, there can be only one Mighty Peculiar!

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 Post subject: Re: The Mopologists' War with the Heartlanders is Heating Up
PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2019 8:55 am 
B.H. Roberts Chair of Mopologetic Studies
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Simon Southerton wrote:
Quote:
I’m sorry to see contention among members of the Church — especially when that contention centers on what is, after all, an issue of at most secondary importance.


Interesting how as editor of the FARMS review and Interpreter, DCP has overseen the publication of dozens of Mesoamerican Limited Geography apologetic papers, but it's an issue of "at most secondary importance". He even writes apologetics for the LG apologetics!!


This is an important point, Simon. As of right now, there is a thread here on MormonDiscussions.com that extends into something like 17 pages--I'm talking about the thread that has utterly dismantled the Dales' paper on the probability of the Book of Mormon being true. Part of that discussion, as you may recall, involved Brant Gardner addressing questions of peer review. Lemmie, who seems to be the foremost expert in these discussions, has said that there is *no way* that this paper could have passed peer review, and Gardner explained that it's difficult to find "peer reviewers" outside the circle of Mopologists (and no, he did not put it that way, but that's what I assume he meant) because non-Mopologists either (a) don't know enough about statistics/archaeology/history/linguistics/etc., or (b) they don't know enough about the Book of Mormon.

The conflict with the Heartlanders, though, sheds further light on the problem with Mopologetics. These are the Mopologists fellow Latter-day Saints. Have Gardner or Wyatt every sought one of them out to conduct a peer review? And why hasn't there ever been a pro-Heartland article published in Interpreter? This *could* be a vigorous, engaging--if sometimes polemical--issue for Mormon intellectuals. Why not set up an actual debate within the blog pages of Mormon Interpreter?

The fact that this hasn't happened tells you so much about what Mopologetics truly is. Rather than taking up the issue (where the Book of Mormon took place), and framing it as an important intellectual issue; rather than having a good, civil, rigorous public debate--either in person or in print; rather than approaching this in a collegial and academic way, they have opted instead to use the tactics of dismissal and outright smearing (remember Greg Smith's article that called Rodney Meldrum a "snake oil salesman"?).

What, are they afraid of the Heartlanders? If money and priestcraft are in any way at the heart of what they do, then they probably *should* be, since it seems like the Heartlanders are really eating into their market share. Are they concerned that the Heartlanders are "stealing" LDS away--taking away their "audience"? The most generous reading in all of this--i.e., that the Mopologists think that the Heartlanders are simply wrong: wrong on the level of truth and intellectual integrity--seems wrong, because if this was the case, you'd expect them to approach this differently (such as by having debates, and tackling the issues in a more balanced way: Why not allow a guest editor from the Heartland camp?). What this shows, sadly, is that our longstanding suspicions about them have been correct. The smears, sniping, and refusal to engage in meaningful ways shows us all what the Mopologists are really all about.

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 Post subject: Re: The Mopologists' War with the Heartlanders is Heating Up
PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2019 9:13 am 
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Doctor Scratch wrote:

This is an important point, Simon. As of right now, there is a thread here on MormonDiscussions.com that extends into something like 17 pages--I'm talking about the thread that has utterly dismantled the Dales' paper on the probability of the Book of Mormon being true. Part of that discussion, as you may recall, involved Brant Gardner addressing questions of peer review. Lemmie, who seems to be the foremost expert in these discussions, has said that there is *no way* that this paper could have passed peer review, and Gardner explained that it's difficult to find "peer reviewers" outside the circle of Mopologists (and no, he did not put it that way, but that's what I assume he meant) because non-Mopologists either (a) don't know enough about statistics/archaeology/history/linguistics/etc., or (b) they don't know enough about the Book of Mormon.

The conflict with the Heartlanders, though, sheds further light on the problem with Mopologetics. These are the Mopologists fellow Latter-day Saints. Have Gardner or Wyatt every sought one of them out to conduct a peer review? And why hasn't there ever been a pro-Heartland article published in Interpreter? This *could* be a vigorous, engaging--if sometimes polemical--issue for Mormon intellectuals. Why not set up an actual debate within the blog pages of Mormon Interpreter?

The fact that this hasn't happened tells you so much about what Mopologetics truly is. Rather than taking up the issue (where the Book of Mormon took place), and framing it as an important intellectual issue; rather than having a good, civil, rigorous public debate--either in person or in print; rather than approaching this in a collegial and academic way, they have opted instead to use the tactics of dismissal and outright smearing (remember Greg Smith's article that called Rodney Meldrum a "snake oil salesman"?).

What, are they afraid of the Heartlanders? If money and priestcraft are in any way at the heart of what they do, then they probably *should* be, since it seems like the Heartlanders are really eating into their market share. Are they concerned that the Heartlanders are "stealing" LDS away--taking away their "audience"? The most generous reading in all of this--i.e., that the Mopologists think that the Heartlanders are simply wrong: wrong on the level of truth and intellectual integrity--seems wrong, because if this was the case, you'd expect them to approach this differently (such as by having debates, and tackling the issues in a more balanced way: Why not allow a guest editor from the Heartland camp?). What this shows, sadly, is that our longstanding suspicions about them have been correct. The smears, sniping, and refusal to engage in meaningful ways shows us all what the Mopologists are really all about.


Fascinating post, Doctor Scratch. It's also interesting to me that the Meso folks don't call the Heartlanders out on their association with avowed racists like Wayne May's buddy, Frank Collin (now calling himself "Frank Joseph").

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Collin

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 Post subject: Re: The Mopologists' War with the Heartlanders is Heating Up
PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2019 4:36 pm 
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Why are heartlanders any more prone to being or becoming a cult, to having had or perhaps experiencing a schism, with "the church" than the LGT'ers? Seems to me "the church" has said geography should not be any member's concern, to just focus on the 'message' of the Book of Mormon. The only ones then that aren't cultish or in a schismatic state with respect to "the church" re the Book of Mormon geography are those that don't trifle their time or attention on where the Book of Mormon events might have occurred.

Of course, don't get me wrong, I think the geography is important, and another nail in the coffin of the Book of Mormon's veracity as a record of actual events that have occurred. I suppose that is what is at the heart of the thought processes that have compelled John Sorenson and his LGT followers, just as it is what has driven Neville and Heartlanders. Not to mention many a GA, such as Joseph Smith, who over the last 150 years has commented about where specifically Book of Mormon "events" took place.

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 Post subject: Re: The Mopologists' War with the Heartlanders is Heating Up
PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2019 4:55 pm 
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Doctor Scratch wrote:
This is an important point, Simon. As of right now, there is a thread here on MormonDiscussions.com that extends into something like 17 pages--I'm talking about the thread that has utterly dismantled the Dales' paper on the probability of the Book of Mormon being true. Part of that discussion, as you may recall, involved Brant Gardner addressing questions of peer review. Lemmie, who seems to be the foremost expert in these discussions, has said that there is *no way* that this paper could have passed peer review, and Gardner explained that it's difficult to find "peer reviewers" outside the circle of Mopologists (and no, he did not put it that way, but that's what I assume he meant) because non-Mopologists either (a) don't know enough about statistics/archaeology/history/linguistics/etc., or (b) they don't know enough about the Book of Mormon.


Gardner knows all about lack of peer review. He reviewed Sorenson's magnum opus "Mormon's Codex" in 2013. Of course he gave it a big thumbs up BUT this was after he had suggested readers skip several chapters because they were so poor and to read a few more with "caution". Gardner wrote a book in 2007 in which he surveyed the evidence against Quetzalcoatl being Christ and Sorenson totally ignored it in his major work and just added more dubious parallels.

Brant Gardner wrote:
“A particularly important example is Sorenson’s elaboration of his support for the parallels between Quetzalcoatl and Jesus Christ. Perhaps because Sorenson has isolated himself from the work of other LDS scholars, he has missed a wider study of the Quetzalcoatl material that explicitly denies the correlation.33

The citation is to Gardner’s books which Sorenson doesn’t cite - ouch. It's inexcusable for a scholar in such a tiny field, to ignore a colleague.

I know that for many years Sorenson ruled the roost at FARMS. Back in 2000 he wrote two brief papers on DNA. The first one was a glowing endorsement because he thought the paper added evidence to his belief that Polynesians were descended from Native Americans. The same year he wrote a scathing review of DNA technology because it supported the theory that humans evolved in Africa. John Tvedtnes told me there was no internal review for these. He just barged on through, so you can imagine how peer review works among apologists.

Quote:
The conflict with the Heartlanders, though, sheds further light on the problem with Mopologetics. These are the Mopologists fellow Latter-day Saints. Have Gardner or Wyatt every sought one of them out to conduct a peer review? And why hasn't there ever been a pro-Heartland article published in Interpreter? This *could* be a vigorous, engaging--if sometimes polemical--issue for Mormon intellectuals. Why not set up an actual debate within the blog pages of Mormon Interpreter?

What, are they afraid of the Heartlanders? If money and priestcraft are in any way at the heart of what they do, then they probably *should* be, since it seems like the Heartlanders are really eating into their market share. Are they concerned that the Heartlanders are "stealing" LDS away--taking away their "audience"? The most generous reading in all of this--i.e., that the Mopologists think that the Heartlanders are simply wrong: wrong on the level of truth and intellectual integrity--seems wrong, because if this was the case, you'd expect them to approach this differently (such as by having debates, and tackling the issues in a more balanced way: Why not allow a guest editor from the Heartland camp?). What this shows, sadly, is that our longstanding suspicions about them have been correct. The smears, sniping, and refusal to engage in meaningful ways shows us all what the Mopologists are really all about.


The FARMS/Interpreter cabal has invested everything in Mesoamerica. They would look like a bunch of idiots if they were to acquiesce. Meso is ludicrous, but Heartland takes it to another level.

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 Post subject: Re: The Mopologists' War with the Heartlanders is Heating Up
PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2019 4:57 pm 
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Quote:
Gardner explained that it's difficult to find "peer reviewers" outside the circle of Mopologists (and no, he did not put it that way, but that's what I assume he meant) because non-Mopologists either (a) don't know enough about statistics/archaeology/history/linguistics/etc., or (b) they don't know enough about the Book of Mormon.


He missed out the most important criteria. (c) They must have concluded the Book of Mormon is true history before they start.

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 Post subject: Re: The Mopologists' War with the Heartlanders is Heating Up
PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2019 5:09 pm 
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Simon Southerton wrote:
The FARMS/Interpreter cabal has invested everything in Mesoamerica. They would look like a bunch of idiots if they were to acquiesce. Meso is ludicrous, but Heartland takes it to another level.

The FARMS/Interpreter cabal ought to appreciate the Heartlanders. It is only by contrast to the Heartlanders and being outdone by them that the FARMS/Interpreter cabal don't 'take the cake', the ludicrous cake.

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 Post subject: Re: The Mopologists' War with the Heartlanders is Heating Up
PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2019 5:25 pm 
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Quote:
What, are they afraid of the Heartlanders? If money and priestcraft are in any way at the heart of what they do, then they probably *should* be, since it seems like the Heartlanders are really eating into their market share. Are they concerned that the Heartlanders are "stealing" LDS away--taking away their "audience"?


The tours DCP headlines for seem to be doing their best to keep their own part of that audience.

Under a headline "Book of Mormon Comes Alive in Mesoamerica" Cruiselady tours advertises this upcoming event:
Quote:
Victor Ludlow will delight and uplift our group with humorous insights and informational talks on sea days. Join us on our optional private tours to make the most of your cruising adventure. Our local LDS guides in Mexico add to our experience in Cozumel as we tour the beautiful seaside ruins of Tulum. In Belize, we offer an exciting river boat ride through the jungle to see the magnificent ruins at Lamanai...

inserted from: "Book of Mormon Comes Alive in Mesoamerica"
http://www.cruiselady.com/tours/book-of ... soamerica/


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 Post subject: Re: The Mopologists' War with the Heartlanders is Heating Up
PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2019 9:10 pm 
B.H. Roberts Chair of Mopologetic Studies
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Simon Southerton wrote:
Doctor Scratch wrote:
This is an important point, Simon. As of right now, there is a thread here on MormonDiscussions.com that extends into something like 17 pages--I'm talking about the thread that has utterly dismantled the Dales' paper on the probability of the Book of Mormon being true. Part of that discussion, as you may recall, involved Brant Gardner addressing questions of peer review. Lemmie, who seems to be the foremost expert in these discussions, has said that there is *no way* that this paper could have passed peer review, and Gardner explained that it's difficult to find "peer reviewers" outside the circle of Mopologists (and no, he did not put it that way, but that's what I assume he meant) because non-Mopologists either (a) don't know enough about statistics/archaeology/history/linguistics/etc., or (b) they don't know enough about the Book of Mormon.


Gardner knows all about lack of peer review. He reviewed Sorenson's magnum opus "Mormon's Codex" in 2013. Of course he gave it a big thumbs up BUT this was after he had suggested readers skip several chapters because they were so poor and to read a few more with "caution". Gardner wrote a book in 2007 in which he surveyed the evidence against Quetzalcoatl being Christ and Sorenson totally ignored it in his major work and just added more dubious parallels.

Brant Gardner wrote:
“A particularly important example is Sorenson’s elaboration of his support for the parallels between Quetzalcoatl and Jesus Christ. Perhaps because Sorenson has isolated himself from the work of other LDS scholars, he has missed a wider study of the Quetzalcoatl material that explicitly denies the correlation.33

The citation is to Gardner’s books which Sorenson doesn’t cite - ouch. It's inexcusable for a scholar in such a tiny field, to ignore a colleague.


You know, this is fascinating. What do you suppose the odds are that Gardner--then the "junior tier" Mopologist--was called on the carpet for this? It's not that often that you see the Mopologists openly picking at each other like this, so this is a real find.

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I know that for many years Sorenson ruled the roost at FARMS. Back in 2000 he wrote two brief papers on DNA. The first one was a glowing endorsement because he thought the paper added evidence to his belief that Polynesians were descended from Native Americans. The same year he wrote a scathing review of DNA technology because it supported the theory that humans evolved in Africa. John Tvedtnes told me there was no internal review for these. He just barged on through, so you can imagine how peer review works among apologists.


LOL! What a devastating blow to all of them, especially (recently) Wyatt and Gardner. Sheesh. Here, let me propose a challenge to them: explain, in the interest of transparency and moving forward, how the current Mormon Interepreter peer review is different compared to the non-existent "peer review" that was done for Sorenson?

Quote:
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The conflict with the Heartlanders, though, sheds further light on the problem with Mopologetics. These are the Mopologists fellow Latter-day Saints. Have Gardner or Wyatt every sought one of them out to conduct a peer review? And why hasn't there ever been a pro-Heartland article published in Interpreter? This *could* be a vigorous, engaging--if sometimes polemical--issue for Mormon intellectuals. Why not set up an actual debate within the blog pages of Mormon Interpreter?

What, are they afraid of the Heartlanders? If money and priestcraft are in any way at the heart of what they do, then they probably *should* be, since it seems like the Heartlanders are really eating into their market share. Are they concerned that the Heartlanders are "stealing" LDS away--taking away their "audience"? The most generous reading in all of this--i.e., that the Mopologists think that the Heartlanders are simply wrong: wrong on the level of truth and intellectual integrity--seems wrong, because if this was the case, you'd expect them to approach this differently (such as by having debates, and tackling the issues in a more balanced way: Why not allow a guest editor from the Heartland camp?). What this shows, sadly, is that our longstanding suspicions about them have been correct. The smears, sniping, and refusal to engage in meaningful ways shows us all what the Mopologists are really all about.


The FARMS/Interpreter cabal has invested everything in Mesoamerica. They would look like a bunch of idiots if they were to acquiesce. Meso is ludicrous, but Heartland takes it to another level.


So, you think it's largely a matter of embarrassment, then? Your other post, Simon--i.e., this:

Simon S. wrote:
Quote:
Gardner explained that it's difficult to find "peer reviewers" outside the circle of Mopologists (and no, he did not put it that way, but that's what I assume he meant) because non-Mopologists either (a) don't know enough about statistics/archaeology/history/linguistics/etc., or (b) they don't know enough about the Book of Mormon.


He missed out the most important criteria. (c) They must have concluded the Book of Mormon is true history before they start.


...is actually really interesting as a point of comparison.

Here's a question for all the students of Mopologetics out there--Who is the greater enemy of the Mopologists: The Heartlanders? Or the Transhumanists? Or the "literary" Book of Mormon people? (AKA, the "New" Maxwell Institute?)

They are really going on the attack against the Heartlanders at the moment, but I wonder if the reason is connected to this Heaven's Gate-esque "Witnesses" film that they're cooking up. If, as some have speculated, the Mopologists are painting themselves into a corner whereby there own movie will indicate "inspired fiction" as a possibility, then maybe it makes sense to shift targets? I.e., you can't take aim at the Inspired Fiction/New MI people at the moment, because you are doing things too similar to them, but your crucial fanbase demands bloodshed, so you go ahead and ramp up the nastiness in the direction of the Heartlanders....

Well, it's fun to speculate, in any case.

_________________
"[I]f, while hoping that everybody else will be honest and so forth, I can personally prosper through unethical and immoral acts without being detected and without risk, why should I not?." --Daniel Peterson, 6/4/14


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 Post subject: Re: The Mopologists' War with the Heartlanders is Heating Up
PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2019 9:55 pm 
Hermit
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Here's a question for all the students of Mopologetics out there--Who is the greater enemy of the Mopologists: The Heartlanders? Or the Transhumanists? Or the "literary" Book of Mormon people? (AKA, the "New" Maxwell Institute?)


I think the literary Book of Mormon people are the least of the enemies. Rather, they are unwanted enemies, mainly because of their academic legitimacy. The apologists would be head over heels if the literary folks accepted them and elated beyond words if the literary folks said, "here brothers, let us together cast stones upon the apostates."

The other two represent those that the old guard wishes to define themselves against. The heartlanders are of course, the greater threat, due to the legitimacy of their claim, the Book of Mormon happened where Joseph Smith said it happened and are greatly annoyed over the lack of graduate degrees in their crowd.

For the size of the Transhumanists, I think they do win in terms of sheer prejudice against them. You're the greater scholar here, so I ask, do you recall much proactive animosity from the old guard towards Meldrum prior to the Heartlanders revealing the apostasy of FARMS? An incident or two the the Mig?

I mean, given the Heartlanders have gone straight to the core doctrine of Mopologetics, the LGT, it's surprising that the old guard hasn't dealt with them more aggressively. In a sense, I think the old guard wishes they'd just go away, and they really have no interest in their ideas.

The preemptive strike against transhumanists is quite unparalleled, given the transhumanists are so remote in terms of any threat or even shared domain of interest with the old guard.

_________________
FARMS refuted:

"...supporters of Billy Meier still point to the very clear photos of Pleiadian beam ships flying over his farm. They argue that for the photos to be fakes, we have to believe that a one-armed man who had no knowledge of Photoshop or other digital photography programs could have made such realistic photos and films..." -- D. R. Prothero


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