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 Post subject: Vogel's 6th video on Abraham and Joseph Smith's Hebrew lessons
PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2018 5:44 pm 
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In this video, I look at the last phase of Joseph Smith’s creation of the Book of Abraham in Nauvoo in 1842 and explore how his lessons in Hebrew in early 1836 influenced some of the text. I also discuss the apologists’ attempt to escape the evidence that destroys their wild and far-fetched theories.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I47ibkJ4QrE

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 Post subject: Re: Vogel's 6th video on Abraham and Joseph Smith's Hebrew l
PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2018 7:46 pm 
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Thanks Dan. I look forward to listening to it.

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 Post subject: Re: Vogel's 6th video on Abraham and Joseph Smith's Hebrew lessons
PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2018 8:32 pm 
Son of Perdition
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Almost done listening. Yes! Good job.

Thank you for bringing up Josephus and the Mestreans. I've been hammering that one for a long time.

Joseph Smith was caught with his hands in the cookie jar.

:wink:

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 Post subject: Re: Vogel's 6th video on Abraham and Joseph Smith's Hebrew lessons
PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2018 8:57 pm 
Son of Perdition
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Great job. I really enjoyed it and look forward to listening to it again, soon.

The apologists have done nothing to vindicate Joseph Smith's interpretation/translation of the Egyptian language and how it relates to the recovered papyrus fragments, Kirtland Papers including bound grammar, and more especially the Explanations of the Facsimiles -- most notably No. 3.

We all know that the Explanations of Facsimile No. 3 are the furthest thing from the Egyptian truth. Nothing could be further. Nothing. The Mormons don't want to deal in truth. The Mormons want to keep their fantasy alive for fantasy sake.

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An original and authentic look at Facsimile No. 3 as never seen before.


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 Post subject: Re: Vogel's 6th video on Abraham and Joseph Smith's Hebrew l
PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2018 11:17 pm 
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On Facebook Dan Vogel has support from an interesting source -
"Brian Hauglid For the record, I no longer hold the views that have been quoted from my 2010 book in these videos. I have moved on from my days as an "outrageous" apologist. In fact, I'm no longer interested or involved in apologetics in any way. I wholeheartedly agree with Dan's excellent assessment of the Abraham/Egyptian documents in these videos. I now reject a missing Abraham manuscript. I agree that two of the Abraham manuscripts were simultaneously dictated. I agree that the Egyptian papers were used to produce the Book of Abraham. I agree that only Abr. 1:1-2:18 were produced in 1835 and that Abr. 2:19-5:21 were produced in Nauvoo. And on and on. I no longer agree with Gee or Mulhestein. I find their apologetic "scholarship" on the Book of Abraham abhorrent. One can find that I've changed my mind in my recent and forthcoming publications. The most recent JSP Revelations and Translation vol. 4, The Book of Abraham and Related Manuscripts (now on the shelves) is much more open to Dan's thinking on the origin of the Book of Abraham. My friend Brent Metcalfe can attest to my transformative journey."

There seems to be a real paradigm shift.

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Israeli Archaeologist Israel Finkelstein: "For if there were no patriarchs no Exodus, no conquest of Canaan--and no prosperous united monarchy under David & Solomon--can we say that early biblical Israel as described in the Five Books of Moses and the books of Joshua Judges and Samuel ever existed at all?" The Bible Unearthed, p. 124.


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 Post subject: Re: Vogel's 6th video on Abraham and Joseph Smith's Hebrew l
PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2018 11:54 pm 
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aussieguy55 wrote:
On Facebook Dan Vogel has support from an interesting source -
"Brian Hauglid For the record, I no longer hold the views that have been quoted from my 2010 book in these videos. I have moved on from my days as an "outrageous" apologist. In fact, I'm no longer interested or involved in apologetics in any way. I wholeheartedly agree with Dan's excellent assessment of the Abraham/Egyptian documents in these videos. I now reject a missing Abraham manuscript. I agree that two of the Abraham manuscripts were simultaneously dictated. I agree that the Egyptian papers were used to produce the Book of Abraham. I agree that only Abr. 1:1-2:18 were produced in 1835 and that Abr. 2:19-5:21 were produced in Nauvoo. And on and on. I no longer agree with Gee or Mulhestein. I find their apologetic "scholarship" on the Book of Abraham abhorrent. One can find that I've changed my mind in my recent and forthcoming publications. The most recent JSP Revelations and Translation vol. 4, The Book of Abraham and Related Manuscripts (now on the shelves) is much more open to Dan's thinking on the origin of the Book of Abraham. My friend Brent Metcalfe can attest to my transformative journey."

There seems to be a real paradigm shift.

Wow.

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THE BOOK OF ABRAHAM FACSIMILE NO. 3

Includes a startling new discovery!

An original and authentic look at Facsimile No. 3 as never seen before.


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 Post subject: Re: Vogel's 6th video on Abraham and Joseph Smith's Hebrew l
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2018 12:10 am 
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aussieguy55 wrote:
On Facebook Dan Vogel has support from an interesting source -
"Brian Hauglid For the record, I no longer hold the views that have been quoted from my 2010 book in these videos. I have moved on from my days as an "outrageous" apologist. In fact, I'm no longer interested or involved in apologetics in any way. I wholeheartedly agree with Dan's excellent assessment of the Abraham/Egyptian documents in these videos. I now reject a missing Abraham manuscript. I agree that two of the Abraham manuscripts were simultaneously dictated. I agree that the Egyptian papers were used to produce the Book of Abraham. I agree that only Abr. 1:1-2:18 were produced in 1835 and that Abr. 2:19-5:21 were produced in Nauvoo. And on and on. I no longer agree with Gee or Mulhestein. I find their apologetic "scholarship" on the Book of Abraham abhorrent. One can find that I've changed my mind in my recent and forthcoming publications. The most recent JSP Revelations and Translation vol. 4, The Book of Abraham and Related Manuscripts (now on the shelves) is much more open to Dan's thinking on the origin of the Book of Abraham. My friend Brent Metcalfe can attest to my transformative journey."

There seems to be a real paradigm shift.


Holy crap.


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 Post subject: Re: Vogel's 6th video on Abraham and Joseph Smith's Hebrew l
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2018 12:45 am 
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About time, but does he just want to sin?

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 Post subject: Re: Vogel's 6th video on Abraham and Joseph Smith's Hebrew l
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2018 2:11 am 
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I had an email exchange with Ian Barbour an archaeologist from New Zealand and he seemed to take the similar view

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Israeli Archaeologist Israel Finkelstein: "For if there were no patriarchs no Exodus, no conquest of Canaan--and no prosperous united monarchy under David & Solomon--can we say that early biblical Israel as described in the Five Books of Moses and the books of Joshua Judges and Samuel ever existed at all?" The Bible Unearthed, p. 124.


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 Post subject: Re: Vogel's 6th video on Abraham and Joseph Smith's Hebrew l
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2018 2:50 am 
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More Facebook dialogue

Pedro Olavarria Brian Hauglid , oh snap!
Care to elaborate on the abhorrence?
Manage
Like · Reply · 7h
Brian Hauglid
Brian Hauglid Pedro Olavarria, Dan does a good job in these videos showing where there's abhorrence, in my view.
5
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Pedro Olavarria
Pedro Olavarria Brian Hauglid I'll check them out for sure.

Fyi, I remember Gee claiming that there might be 40 feet of missing papyri but I plugged Smith and Cook's measurements into the Hoffman formula Gee uses and only get two feet of missing papyri.

Smith and Cook didn't even need to create a new formula for their Dialogue paper. It boggles the mind.

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Israeli Archaeologist Israel Finkelstein: "For if there were no patriarchs no Exodus, no conquest of Canaan--and no prosperous united monarchy under David & Solomon--can we say that early biblical Israel as described in the Five Books of Moses and the books of Joshua Judges and Samuel ever existed at all?" The Bible Unearthed, p. 124.


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 Post subject: Re: Vogel's 6th video on Abraham and Joseph Smith's Hebrew lessons
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2018 7:01 am 
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I really like Vogel's 6th video, actually I like them all, but this particular one seems to have a little extra zest and was very straightforward and right on target. Dan's soft spoken and distinct style is always pleasant to listen to and this time interestingly enough there seemed to be more of an authoritative ring as if he was about to drop a shoe or make an amazing announcement. Perhaps it's just his collective work catching up with him and it shows in his countenance. I would have to think that Mormon scholars and apologists are not going to want to try and refute his work -- they certainly are not up to the task and they know it.

The church has few options in countering the cold and unpleasant facts. The church is left trying to separate and divide the outcome of the revelation with all the the things that caused the revelation to happen. The church wants the end result but they don't want the process in which it was produced. It's like Christmas presents under the tree for the kids on Christmas morning. Where did all the presents come from? Did Santa Claus come down the chimney and put them there or was it mom and dad? Likewise, where did the Book of Abraham come from, really?

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THE BOOK OF ABRAHAM FACSIMILE NO. 3

Includes a startling new discovery!

An original and authentic look at Facsimile No. 3 as never seen before.


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 Post subject: Re: Vogel's 6th video on Abraham and Joseph Smith's Hebrew l
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2018 7:58 am 
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This is huge news about Hauglid. It surprises me, yet doesn't surprise me. He is honest, and I knew that from talking behind the scenes when I was videoing the FAIR conferences. He was giving little hints that there are problems with the Mormon apologetic, though I now cannot remember exactly what we were talking about. I hope the very best for him! He is a good man and just wants to know the truth. Gee and Muhlestein dug such huge holes of silliness in the papyri issues, that I suspect no one at BYU actually believes what they are saying, but why bite the hand that feeds you. BYU is not paying them less than 6 digits, which means a very comfortable living. That is my supposition, but whatever they are paid, it is a comfortable living.
Once they get to retirement age, nothing is stopping them from finally beocming totally honest about it all. I suspect too that was why John Tvedtnes left FARMS so quietly. I knew there was some real issues with his research and how badly they were treating him. He was another one of the really good guys in my opinion. I was truly sorry to hear he passed away. I hope Hauglid will continue researching and writing. Man I'd love to interview Vogel, Metcalfe, Hauglid, and others in my New Backyard Professor Videos I am working on. That would ROCK! And yes many of YOU here on this message board! I would LOVE to interview you without giving your names away on sooooooo many issues! That would increase the fun and interest in making my videos exponentially all the greater. Just keep it in mind! Could you imagine the Backyard Professor and Shulem? And Consiglieri? And Dr. Scratch? And Kishkumen? And Symmachus? And Dr W? And I Have a Question? And Lemmie? And so many more who I love to read here? Now that will be rockin good times!!! :cool:

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 Post subject: Re: Vogel's 6th video on Abraham and Joseph Smith's Hebrew l
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2018 12:27 pm 
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Again Dan, thanks so much for doing these videos. I really liked this series and look forward to watching #6. I learned much from them that I didn't know before in the various books and online sources I have read on the Book of Abraham. If only you were the official church historian...

Bill


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 Post subject: Re: Vogel's 6th video on Abraham and Joseph Smith's Hebrew l
PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2018 7:52 am 
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Mormon Think wrote:
Again Dan, thanks so much for doing these videos. I really liked this series and look forward to watching #6. I learned much from them that I didn't know before in the various books and online sources I have read on the Book of Abraham. If only you were the official church historian...

Bill


He is actually. He is the official honest church historian which the church will not adopt, hence he is likened unto John the Baptist as a voice crying out in the wilderness.

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Science is not reliable because it provides certainty. It is reliable because it provides us with the best answers we have at present. And it is reliability we need, not certainty. The most credible answers are the ones given by science, because science is the search for the most credible answers available, not for answers pretending to certainty. Carlo Rovelli


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 Post subject: Re: Vogel's 6th video on Abraham and Joseph Smith's Hebrew l
PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2018 3:58 pm 
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Philo Sofee wrote:
Mormon Think wrote:
Again Dan, thanks so much for doing these videos. I really liked this series and look forward to watching #6. I learned much from them that I didn't know before in the various books and online sources I have read on the Book of Abraham. If only you were the official church historian...

Bill


He is actually. He is the official honest church historian which the church will not adopt, hence he is likened unto John the Baptist as a voice crying out in the wilderness.


I have no ambitions other than participating in the scholarly dialogue as best I can.

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 Post subject: Re: Vogel's 6th video on Abraham and Joseph Smith's Hebrew l
PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2018 4:08 pm 
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Yes!
Remain independent without question. Your work is stellar and very valuable for balanced and informative contexts.

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Science is not reliable because it provides certainty. It is reliable because it provides us with the best answers we have at present. And it is reliability we need, not certainty. The most credible answers are the ones given by science, because science is the search for the most credible answers available, not for answers pretending to certainty. Carlo Rovelli


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 Post subject: Re: Vogel's 6th video on Abraham and Joseph Smith's Hebrew l
PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2018 4:21 pm 
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The other day I checked mormonthink.com and couldn't find your latest offerings.
I usually head there for update information.
Thanks for providing this here.


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 Post subject: Re: Vogel's 6th video on Abraham and Joseph Smith's Hebrew l
PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2018 4:22 pm 
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Philo Sofee wrote:
Yes!
Remain independent without question. Your work is stellar and very valuable for balanced and informative contexts.


Bear in mind that the material Vogel presents has not been showcased in public view in such detailed scholarly format. Vogel's pioneering efforts are historical in itself -- history will remember him as the father of modern KEP reporting. Dan has secured his place in history.

Congratulations.

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THE BOOK OF ABRAHAM FACSIMILE NO. 3

Includes a startling new discovery!

An original and authentic look at Facsimile No. 3 as never seen before.


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