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 Post subject: Re: Little girl has her mic turned off during F&T meeting
PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2017 1:45 pm 
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Sanctorian wrote:
Water Dog wrote:
All we can do is look at the evidence and make our own judgement. I'll agree to disagree. To be clear though, I'm not suggesting some grand conspiracy theory. What happened happened. My response is more along the lines of a big eye roll. This is no different then Dehlin and his candlelight vigils. It has nothing whatsoever to do with my agreeing or disagreeing with the contents of her little speech. I'm simply rolling my eyes. Ok there Rosa Parks, you sure showed them (insert eye roll).

It's just r*******.

Everybody in exmo internet is sucking each other off over this thing, meanwhile the TBMs don't give a ____. Nor should they. Because, again, it's literally r*******. A little girl got up and said some things which common sense should have told her, and especially her parents, were completely inappropriate for the audience, she very very predictabley got politely asked to sit down - big deal - where's the fire? And instead of just not going to church anymore, lol, of course, let's post it on the internet! How convenient that a video was made. It wasn't made for this purpose though, no way, we just wanted to capture a memory of our Little Wonder Woman. But it sure is convenient though, isn't it, yes, please slap our 12 year old daughters face and name all over the ____ internet.


I'm honestly quite shocked by your response. I get that TBMs won't register this. Hell, they don't register anything beyond what they read on KSL and even that's a stretch sometimes. But surely you've been around long enough to know some Mormons are in fact trying to change the culture from within. It's not as simple as "why don't they stop going to church" for some people. Some people do in fact feel a mission to change the culture from within. I personally agree with you that it's a waste of time, and more often than not, people like this do eventually get to that point and leave. But, some try and take a stab at it thinking they can make a difference. When they realize the church doesn't give two ____, they'll leave and fade from the memories of the TBMs.

Call her Rosa Parks all you want. I like the Rosa Parks of the world because they create events like this to evaluate our cultures and societies. Saying it's r******* seems a bit extreme and I'm not sure why taking it out on a little girl, coached or not, seems appropriate to you. But, whatevs. If it makes you feel better to pick on little girls, go for it.
Wishing I could rep this post. I so agree. Edited to add that you guys haven't seen anything like Scott Lloyd's response on this on MD&D...It is astounding!!


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 Post subject: Re: Little girl has her mic turned off during F&T meeting
PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2017 3:12 pm 
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Water Dog wrote:
Ironically it would seem she accomplished exactly the opposite. She demonstrated that, no, they don't have a voice in the LDS church. She showed that such a youth probably should remain in the closet lest they get their mic shutdown. She gave these kids a reason to despair. And also I'm sure caused all sorts of behind-closed-doors chatter, so some closet gay kid (all over the country) is probably hearing their parents talk trash about the gays as a result of this. And by that I mean they gave people negative things to talk about... a negative association. Because this was not an example of good behavior that is worth following. Hanging around in an organization you completely disagree with, one that is even abusive to your kids, purely for the purpose of acting like a kind of spy and agitating for regime change, etc., this is an act of hostility. People in the church are not inspired by this behavior, they are insulted by it.


Can you explain to me how dependents are just going to walk out the door?

- Doc

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 Post subject: Re: Little girl has her mic turned off during F&T meeting
PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2017 5:45 pm 
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Lemmie wrote:
Water Dog wrote:
Ironically it would seem she accomplished exactly the opposite. She demonstrated that, no, they don't have a voice in the LDS church. She showed that such a youth probably should remain in the closet lest they get their mic shutdown. She gave these kids a reason to despair. And also I'm sure caused all sorts of behind-closed-doors chatter, so some closet gay kid (all over the country) is probably hearing their parents talk trash about the gays as a result of this. And by that I mean they gave people negative things to talk about... a negative association.

What utter nonsense. Your cause and effect statements are meaningless. The 12-year-old did NOT give kids "a reason to despair," that reason was already there. The event didn't CAUSE a "closet gay kid" to hear "parents talk trash." This situation did NOT give "people negative things to talk about," those issues were already there.

Your arguments are becoming illogical in the extreme. It sounds like you are suggesting that if people just wouldn't talk about the negative things, then the negative things wouldn't have impact? That's nonsensical.


Rather than reason to despair, her efforts may actually have given some youth there a reason to open a dialogue with their loved ones or adults a reason to dialogue with their children and each other.

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 Post subject: Re: Little girl has her mic turned off during F&T meeting
PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 2:28 am 
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Did you know that an analog to this discussion has been going on 28 pages at the Great and Specious Board and the thread had not been shut down. I do think at least one advocate for the young girl had been banned, but that is not unexpected.

Even FAIRMormon has issued a position paper in favor of turning off the microphone for young Savanah's testimony. Guess a video shining a light on LDS policy can do that.

Cinepro asked the question of whether this Beehive girl has been excommunicated yet. I imagine that question is under discussion at her local Stake level and perhaps it has already received promptings from Elder Oaks. Can't imagine any excommunication happening until the news dies down. Since this is an interesting story, hopefully, we will hear what develops. My guess is that she will be made to feel so unwelcome that she might voluntarily resign. Rosa Parks chose to leave Alabama and move to Detroit after the boycott. Maybe Motor City could provide some safety and love for young Savanah too.

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 Post subject: Re: Little girl has her mic turned off during F&T meeting
PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 7:04 am 
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For a Church that proclaims free agency, dialogue, and invites examination it sure does love to shut ____ down every chance it gets when it doesn't go their way. For people who mew on and on about the Church being left alone it sure doesn't fly when it won't leave others alone.

Again. Water Dog explain to me how dependents are just going to walk out the door?

The Church is an absolutist organization and only the façade of freedom or choice or agency exists. They demonstrate this over and over again. It's about securing the future of some nepotistic families and their connected friends. It's always been that way, and I don't see that changing anytime soon. To cede control over the people would result in their disempowerment.

- Doc

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Last edited by Doctor CamNC4Me on Mon Jun 19, 2017 8:00 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Little girl has her mic turned off during F&T meeting
PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 7:13 am 
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All I know is that I mentioned this girl and her testimony to my wife on Friday (she hadn't heard anything about it), but by Sunday, she said her Facebook was lit up with controversy surrounding it from members she is still in contact with and family etc. She said about half were defending the church and about half were sympathetic to the girl. So its definitely getting people talking.

After listening and reading the full transcript of the testimony, it was relatively benign. Compared to all the dumb ____ I've heard over the years in F&T meeting, it was nothing. We used to have a schizophrenic drug addict get up every month and just ramble for 20 minutes about crazy random things.............stuff you couldn't even mumble Amen to.........and no one ever got up to tell that dude to sit down.

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 Post subject: Re: Little girl has her mic turned off during F&T meeting
PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 9:53 am 
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Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Water Dog,

Your use of 'leaving the church but can't leave it alone' canard isn't applicable to the context of the discussion. You again failed to make your statement make any sense within the confines of the discussion.

Also, I call buuuuuuuuuuuuull ____ on the kids not being allowed to bare their testimonies. The Ward near us does it EVERY SINGLE F&T. My BIL's Ward does it EVERY SINGLE F&T. I attended church in Korea in 2014 and 2015 a few times and the kids were being coached both F&T's I was there.

You. Are. Full of it.

- Doc


I've heard local leaders discourage parents from whispering into a kid's ear during F&T meeting. I also vaguely recall some letter (perhaps First Presidency) being read over the pulpit about proper F&T meeting testimony etiquette. I've never seen this enforced, though.

And regardless, I think there are two distinctions:

1. Even if discouraged in F&T meeting, it's not discouraged elsewhere. In fact, Primary will sometimes have its own testimony meeting, and when dealing with little kids, coaching is inevitable if not impossible.

2. That this girl prepared her testimony in advance and sought input from close family members is not the same as a parent whispering into a kid's ear what to say. Not even close. I remember with my wife's grandmother passed away, her dad and uncle sought input from each other and others when writing their eulogies. What they ended up saying, however, was their words, and it would have been absurd to think that they had been somehow manipulated.


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 Post subject: Re: Little girl has her mic turned off during F&T meeting
PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 10:02 am 
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I'm still kind of hung up on Water Dog's obstinance regarding people 'not leaving the Church alone'. I mean it's just such bull ____.

- The Church will baptize kids at EIGHT-YEARS-OLD. Who the ____ knows anything about anything at 8??? But the Church dunks your ass claiming you're now old enough to commit to a lifetime of Church membership. It's just wrong.

- The Church confers the priesthood on TWELVE-YEAR-OLDS. 12!

- The Church demands EIGHTEEN-YEAR-OLDS serve a mission proclaiming the truthfulness of the Church. Give me a break! We send a bunch of children out to tell everyone else their faith is erroneous and the Mormon church is the right faith. When did the Church ever leave these kids alone? When has the Church ever left ANYONE alone?

And, yet Water Dog gets his knickers in a twist over a kid basically stating that she's Gay and wanting others to know it's ok. That it's ok to be Gay and Mormon.

The Church certainly isn't leaving any kids alone at any point throughout their young lives, but god forbid someone states in front of a congregation that they're different and they'd just like to be accepted by the people who knows her.

How do these kids, families, dependents, and completely inmeshed types just walk the ____ out the door? How does someone who has had basically NO CHOICE throughout their lives just walk out the door and leave everyone alone? What a heartless and unthinking thing to say.

- Doc

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 Post subject: Re: Little girl has her mic turned off during F&T meeting
PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 10:27 am 
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Water Dog wrote:
If your argument is that people have a busy-body right to nag the LDS church into compliance - because by golly, pounding the table, you're just right and they are wrong - I disagree with you. That same argument could be made against anything or anybody. It's an argument for a totalitarian state with zero privacy that you've appointed yourself the head of. You disagree with the LDS church, so what? Your subjective opinion is no more right or wrong than theirs. You have zero right to bark orders at them and tell them how to raise their kids. And in context, if you want to play these sort of busy-body games, I can think of more problematic cultures that your time would be better spent on. I dunno, like, maybe the muslims. And I point this out because ironically, the same folks who get so worked up about the LDS church and gays are going out of their way to embrace the spread of islam around the world.

What part of the girl's statement qualifies as "busy-body nag[ging] the LDS church," or "pounding the table," or "bark[ing] orders," or "get-[ting] so worked up"?

You seem to be arguing an entirely different issue.


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 Post subject: Re: Little girl has her mic turned off during F&T meeting
PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 10:52 am 
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There you have it. Water Dog has no answers other than 'suck it up' Gay people. 'We all got problems'! God forbid people state that something is amiss and they stick up for themselves. Progress would just happen organically! Stop agitating for dignity!

- Doc

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 Post subject: Re: Little girl has her mic turned off during F&T meeting
PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 11:32 am 
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Water Dog wrote:
...
If your argument is that people have a busy-body right to nag the LDS church into compliance - because by golly, pounding the table, you're just right and they are wrong - I disagree with you. That same argument could be made against anything or anybody. It's an argument for a totalitarian state with zero privacy that you've appointed yourself the head of. You disagree with the LDS church, so what? Your subjective opinion is no more right or wrong than theirs. You have zero right to bark orders at them and tell them how to raise their kids.


If I am a BIC and baptised member of the CoJCoLDS, who believes in the Gospel and sees the church I was brought up in as Christ's only restored church on earth, and as I move into adolescence I become conscious that the church rejects a core aspect of what I realise myself to be - my way of finding adult human love - then I sure as hell have a right to say to my fellow church members 'Friends: I think our church is getting something wrong, just like when it got the whole issue of black people wrong. Please listen to me and I shall tell you why'. Which is pretty well what that little girl did.

That's not being a busybody. That's not nagging, or pounding the table, or violating anybody's privacy (hell, it's HER church, right?). It is speaking the truth as you believe God has given you to see it to the fellow members of your family in Christ. It's a duty.

Water Dog wrote:
And in context, if you want to play these sort of busy-body games, I can think of more problematic cultures that your time would be better spent on. I dunno, like, maybe the muslims. And I point this out because ironically, the same folks who get so worked up about the LDS church and gays are going out of their way to embrace the spread of islam around the world.


If I am a member of the CoJCoLDS, like that little girl, my primary duty is to speak the truth to my church. Which is what she tried to do until they turned her mike off ...

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 Post subject: Re: Little girl has her mic turned off during F&T meeting
PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 12:26 pm 
God

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Water Dog wrote:
Lemmie wrote:
What part of the girl's statement qualifies as "busy-body nag[ging] the LDS church," or "pounding the table," or "bark[ing] orders," or "get-[ting] so worked up"?

Lemmie, do you read English? As usual, I have literally no idea what you're talking about. None of those words are in reference to the girl or her statement.

Exactly my point! (I think you understand better than you admit. :lol: ) You try to move the goalposts by stating elements that have nothing to do with the topic at hand. If the little girl's testimony had none of those elements, as you admit, then why do you use those elements to try to re-frame the question?
Water Dog wrote:
If your argument is that people have a busy-body right to nag the LDS church into compliance - because by golly, pounding the table, you're just right and they are wrong - I disagree with you.


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 Post subject: Re: Little girl has her mic turned off during F&T meeting
PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 12:30 pm 
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Water Dog wrote:
Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
How do these kids, families, dependents, and completely inmeshed types just walk the ____ out the door? How does someone who has had basically NO CHOICE throughout their lives just walk out the door and leave everyone alone? What a heartless and unthinking thing to say.

Cry me a river. Oh, the horror of horrors, someone was born into an LDS family. Everybody is born into circumstances that are beyond control. In the main, LDS folks are doing pretty good and live a damn pampered existence when you get right down to it. We all have childhood issues to overcome. All of us. Being gay in an LDS household is no more an issue than any number of other things we could put on a list.


Being gay in an LDS household isn't the issue. Being gay in the LDS church is the issue.

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 Post subject: Re: Little girl has her mic turned off during F&T meeting
PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 12:31 pm 
God

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Chap wrote:
If I am a BIC and baptised member of the CoJCoLDS, who believes in the Gospel and sees the church I was brought up in as Christ's only restored church on earth, and as I move into adolescence I become conscious that the church rejects a core aspect of what I realise myself to be - my way of finding adult human love - then I sure as hell have a right to say to my fellow church members 'Friends: I think our church is getting something wrong, just like when it got the whole issue of black people wrong. Please listen to me and I shall tell you why'. Which is pretty well what that little girl did.

That's not being a busybody. That's not nagging, or pounding the table, or violating anybody's privacy (hell, it's HER church, right?). It is speaking the truth as you believe God has given you to see it to the fellow members of your family in Christ. It's a duty.

Water Dog wrote:
And in context, if you want to play these sort of busy-body games, I can think of more problematic cultures that your time would be better spent on. I dunno, like, maybe the muslims. And I point this out because ironically, the same folks who get so worked up about the LDS church and gays are going out of their way to embrace the spread of islam around the world.


If I am a member of the CoJCoLDS, like that little girl, my primary duty is to speak the truth to my church. Which is what she tried to do until they turned her mike off ...

Great points. For a twelve-year-old, she was pretty brave, I think. And in her twelve-year-old world, she's struggling with a burden that's pretty overwhelming. Overwhelming enough that there is a suicide crisis in Utah. Asking a pre-teen to not feel so bad because there are bigger issues in the world would be adding to that burden.


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 Post subject: Re: Little girl has her mic turned off during F&T meeting
PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 12:33 pm 
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Water Dog wrote:
And I point this out because ironically, the same folks who get so worked up about the LDS church and gays are going out of their way to embrace the spread of islam around the world.

The same folks? CFR, Water Dog. CFR. Your well-documented tendency to speak in broad stereotypes is irritating at best, and inexcusable here. Please produce references that "the same folks" are involved.


Last edited by Lemmie on Mon Jun 19, 2017 12:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Little girl has her mic turned off during F&T meeting
PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 12:36 pm 
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Lemmie wrote:
And in her twelve-year-old world, she's struggling with a burden that's pretty overwhelming. Overwhelming enough that there is a suicide crisis in Utah.

^^^ That. That right there is the critical issue.

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 Post subject: Re: Little girl has her mic turned off during F&T meeting
PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 12:43 pm 
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Water Dog wrote:
And in context, if you want to play these sort of busy-body games, I can think of more problematic cultures that your time would be better spent on. I dunno, like, maybe the muslims. And I point this out because ironically, the same folks who get so worked up about the LDS church and gays are going out of their way to embrace the spread of islam around the world.


I agree that there are more problematic cultures, Islamic societies and communites being among them. (I wouldn't call "muslims" a culture.)

And I echo the call for evidence that "the same folks who get so worked up about the LDS church and gays are going out of their way to embrace the spread of Islam around the world."

Sure, there is a leftist embrace of Islam that is difficult to understand, but that's not the same thing as what you're claiming.


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 Post subject: Re: Little girl has her mic turned off during F&T meeting
PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 12:46 pm 
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Jersey Girl wrote:
Lemmie wrote:
And in her twelve-year-old world, she's struggling with a burden that's pretty overwhelming. Overwhelming enough that there is a suicide crisis in Utah.



^^^ That. That right there is the critical issue.

In the back of my mind, throughout this whole discussion, I keep recalling the Utah suicides I have read about recently. This girl sounds strong and determined, but people are saying some horrible, horrible things about her and her family. Even in this thread, one poster speculated -with no evidence whatsoever!- that "the leadership/ward may have already had a history of certain behaviors with this girl and her family." Despicable.

I'm sure she has lots of support and encouragement, at least I hope so, because she will need it.


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 Post subject: Re: Little girl has her mic turned off during F&T meeting
PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 12:51 pm 
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Lemmie wrote:
Water Dog wrote:
And I point this out because ironically, the same folks who get so worked up about the LDS church and gays are going out of their way to embrace the spread of islam around the world.

The same folks? CFR, Water Dog. CFR. Your well-documented tendency to speak in broad stereotypes is irritating at best, and inexcusable here. Please produce references that "the same folks" are involved.

Water Dog wrote:
See the presidential election. Did you vote for Trump and banning refugees from immigrating to the USA?

That's not a reference, Water Dog.

Please produce references that "the same folks who get so worked up about the LDS church and gays are going out of their way to embrace the spread of islam around the world." Or you can withdraw the statement, because it is a pretty ridiculous stereotype to pursue.


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 Post subject: Re: Little girl has her mic turned off during F&T meeting
PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 12:57 pm 
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Water Dog wrote:
Lemmie wrote:
And in her twelve-year-old world, she's struggling with a burden that's pretty overwhelming. Overwhelming enough that there is a suicide crisis in Utah.

Oh brother. No she's not. Her parents are rainbow flag waiving activists.

CFR please, Water Dog.


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 Post subject: Re: Little girl has her mic turned off during F&T meeting
PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 12:59 pm 
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Water Dog wrote:
As for the suicide crisis, CFR! No evidence has been produced to show there is a gay-related suicide crisis in Utah. A lot of accusations to that effect, no concrete data to substantiate the claim. Any data provided is correlational at best.

Quote:
What is the direct empirical evidence?

1.National studies show that LGBTQ teens are at a much higher risk of suicide attempts.1

2.Family Acceptance Project (FAP) has done some excellent research showing that there is an exponential risk of suicide for LGBTQ teens who come from families that show rejecting behaviors. They even studied what those rejecting behaviors are, and anyone familiar with the Mormon community would recognize those rejecting behaviors as being very common in our communities. Rejecting behaviors by parents are even reinforced by local church leaders and Mormon culture (refer to FAP info). It is also important to note that the risk of suicide remains higher well into adulthood. These youth also have exponentially higher rates of drug/alcohol use, depression, and HIV infection compared to youth raised in homes that don’t show these rejecting behaviors.2

3.Schools with explicit anti-homophobia interventions such as gay-straight alliances (GSAs) may reduce the odds of suicidal thoughts and attempts among LGBTQ students.3

4.Suicide is the number one cause of death of all Utah youth; this is not the case nationally. More alarming, the teen suicide rate in Utah has doubled since 2011.4

5.Teen suicide is lower when there is an LGBTQ supportive environment.5

Unfortunately, isolation (a risk factor for suicide) is more prevalent among LGBTQ people. For example, one study shows that lesbian, gay and bisexual Australians are twice as likely as heterosexual Australians to have no contact with family or no family to rely on for serious problems (11.8% v. 5.9%).6

There is a clear body of research showing that there is an elevated risk of suicide among LGBTQ teens nationally. There is also a clear body of research showing what the major risk factors are for suicide and other poor outcomes for LGBTQ youth. There is no reason to believe that the LDS community is immune to this. Based on this alone, we do need to consider that we have a suicide problem in our community. Analysis of the data suggests that the problem is worse in LDS communities than the national average. The youth suicide rate in Utah is the first statistic that implies this. Although the suicide rate is elevated throughout the intermountain west,7 no other states have seen the doubling in the teen suicides that Utah has had in the past 4 years. Why is youth suicide in Utah so much higher than the national average? Since LGBTQ issues may be a large factor impacting teen suicides, it would be irresponsible not to address these issues locally, especially when the suicide problem is so acute in Utah, where the highest concentration of Mormons live. Meanwhile, studies have shown us the risk factors for suicide, but protective factors have not been studied as extensively or rigorously as risk factors.

http://rationalfaiths.com/the-lgbtq-mor ... n-suicide/

(The footnotes are not hyperlinked in the above excerpt, but they are in the link.)
Here's my CFR. Your requested, multiple CFRs are forthcoming, I assume.


Last edited by Lemmie on Mon Jun 19, 2017 1:05 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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